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Annalisa

Pros/Cons of Women/Girls in Boy Scouting

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My experience includes being a leader in Cub Scouting, and Girl Scouting, Boy Scouting and now in Venturing as well as several years of being a Coach/Advisor in Odyssey of the Mind (a coed program.) What I am finding in the coed programming of Venturing in the USA is that the female youth are dominating in the executive and leadership roles. This is occuring both within my crew and at our councilwide Venturing and Exploring forum. The male youth are very comfortable with taking direction from the female youth leader and working cooperatively with them. I see a marked contrast to the GOBs that exist in the adult scouter network. The one problem area we have experienced is the aggressiveness of some few youth who want to make everything a dating situation and refuse to give up when rebuffed. We have had to handle sexual harrassment of males by female youth. While this is a challenge, maybe correcting such behavior within the framework of a program like scouting will help these kids development in other life situations. I don't know if this is the kind of information you are looking for, but please contact me off this list if you want further data.

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I tend to agree with most other postings. Women are fine leaders and I think they will allways have a place in scouting. After all, even back in the 40's there were den mothers in cubbing. Younger girls do have girlscouting, and slightly older ones have venturing, and I know that lots of little girls have tagged along on campouts as guests with their folks. I'm not quite sure aout the legality of this, but they are really just going with their family and rarely get too involved with the boys activities. Good Luck

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The phrase "on paper, BSA does treat women equally. However in the real world BSA does NOT." perplexes me. The BSA is really just paper. The Scouters and Scouts that are members of BSA may or may not treat women equally. As proof, the BSA has no self awareness that you are a male or female, only your fellow members do (at least most of them!).

 

I'd like to see a thesis (not for Commissioners College, but an traditional academic thesis) on African-Americans view of the BSA. I bet we would find out some interesting things.

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willysjeep,

 

Cub Scout camping is family camping. At the very least, a parent or guardian must be present. However, we just went to two council sponsored campouts in October and both were family camping. Many of the activities went towards individual items for achievements. These activities were not limited to the Cub Scout boys. Any brother or sister of any age could participate in the activity. When my son was thru shooting on the BB gun range, one of the instructors asked him to help another Cub's little sister who was having trouble. Different colored beads were given for each activity. At the end of the campout, all paid campers, Scout or not received a camp patch. The campouts are open to parents, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc. The total overall number of campers is limited by the camping session, but if you get in under the limit, you can bring as much family as you want. So in a sense, Cub Scouts are limited to boys, but at the campouts the whole family (girls included) can come and participate in the same activities.

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For your information on paid positions, our Council's Scout Executive is a female, having been on the job for a good number of years nd does an admirable job.

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Wow, guess things are different here in Colorado. We have a number of committee positions held by women as well as council positions. Several OA members, and many woodbadge ladies. On some high adventure activities we open up to include family (mom, brother and sister)members. Just doesn't seem to produce the same knee-jerk reaction. Don't know why. Maybe it's our pioneering past where men and women respected each other more.

 

Sorry to see someone get so attacked at this site. It seems to becoming much less Scout "courteous and kind". Cut the young lady some slack and just provide a personal opinion.

 

My appologies for your reception by some. Yarrow

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yarrow & Others,

 

If you honestly perceive this woman as a victim of some sort of verbal attack, please tell me where you live. I want to move there. It must be Utopia. Around these parts (D.C. area), we call this a healthy exchange of ideas. If someone is seeking the cooperation of others that person should expect some probing questions. Unfounded personal attacks are ugly and un-Scout-like. However, there were no such attacks made on Annalisa. In fact, I submit that Annalisa was the one who went on the offensive. But in America where the double standard has become the norm, I shouldn't be surprised that the aggressor is being portrayed as the victim.

 

Incidentally, I find it rather amusing that yarrow infers that Colorado is progressive and notes, "Maybe it's our pioneering past where men and women respected each other more." I find it amusing because according to Annalisa, Colorado is repressive and notes, "They may be able to hold the same positions as men in Scouting, but I have yet to see a woman in a paid position, unless she's working the cash register." So, apparently, while yarrow may be sympathetic to Annalisa's purported rude treatment on this forum, she has not had the same experience in Colorado.

 

According to Annalisa, I am -

embarrassing,

disgusting,

a "good ol boy",

and a "disgrace to your uniform"

 

So, please enlighten me. Exactly what insults were hurled her way to justify this kind of response? If mere questions about her motivates justifies this behavior, I am glad I did not actually call her any of the things she called me.

 

Since I am being chastised anyway, let me share a thought. Note - don't use these words as justification for her behavior because they're coming after the fact - not before. I appreciate and work with many intelligent women. I respect them as equals. In some cases, they are my superiors. But Annalisa is a walking billboard for the 60's stereotypical feminist she claims not to be. She picks a controversial topic for an "unbiased" study, yet the moment someone dares to question her motives, she runs from the fight screaming victimization. In an effort of her own choosing, supposedly to further the cause of women, she re-enforces the very stereotypes she probably abhors. If this had been a campfire, I probably would have been admonished (by men and women alike), for making the lady cry. But what exactly have I done to deserve the portrayal of male chauvinist? I simply treated her as an equal and challenged her to provide a reasonable explanation as to what she was trying to accomplish. In return, she not only failed to provide an answer, she attacked me (and others) for simply asking the question. For this, I am suddenly accused as being the mean-spirited aggressor. How ironic! This thread is a microcosm for what's wrong in this world today. Reason and logic are secondary. Emotion and manipulation rules the day. Why present information and facts, when one can simply label his or her opponent as some sort of pariah.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

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Annalisa was first to go on the offensive? Please read her first post and tell me - what about it was even remotely confrontational? She had a question, and she provided us with basic background information so we could know the context of her question.

 

Now look at Bobwhites initial response. He begins with the telling, with all due respect, a comment that invariably precedes criticism. He then questions the purpose of her thesis, how she intends to conduct her research, and even goes so far as to suggest that her work is inappropriate for a doctoral study. And for all the feathers he ruffled, his questioning did NOTHING to facilitate the discussion at hand: the pros and cons of women in scouting.

 

If I came on this site and asked for a good place for my troop to camp, would you ask if Id had my permission slips filled out? If my membership was current? If Id taken Scoutmaster training and if I had enough gear for everyone? Thats essentially what Bobwhite did he used this womans question to pry into things that had no relevance to the discussion and were certainly none of his business, and in doing so he managed to distract this thread from the original question and thereby deprived Annalisa of a valuable resource.

 

Nice job, Bob.

 

 

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But how do you really feel Jerry?

 

Look, if I had any idea that AnnaLisa would have reacted the way she did I never would have asked the question. I couched my response the way I did to let her know I meant no harm, I simple wanted to talk to her about the overall thesis.

 

Hashing things out with the experience on this board could not have done any harm to her work and just might have enhanced it. It very well might of sparked the more detailed input she said she was after, and from more posters.

 

My first post may not have been what she expected but it certainly wasn't argumentative.

It was more curious if anything.

 

By the way Jerry, I did at least answer her question, something you have failed to do in your three posts on this string. So far all you have done is criticize my conversation with AnnLisa. Perhaps you could set your personal crusade aside on your next post and address AnnaLisa.

 

Bob White

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Thankyou Bob White for demonstrating the awsome power of assumption. I did address Annalisa's question some time ago, but did so privately. Anyone who's followed other recent threads already knows my views on women in scouting and I didn't feel the need bore everyone by repeating myself.

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I would have to agree that the question itself shows an agenda. If looking for honest opinions, then be fairminded enough to listen without flying off the handle. While I often don't agree with Bob White on his personal stances, he has a valid point that if you are asking for people to take part in your research, they have the right to ask questions about it and it's uses. Why would this engender such hostile remarks from you AnnaLisa? As for your comments to Rooster, they serve to undermine the research you purport to undertake without bias. They were assumptions to the nth degree and were unfounded. I have found him to be logical, honest and fairminded. Take a deep breath, reread the posts and ask yourself if your responses were a little "wild" and if your personal feelings are coloring them a little more than you realize.

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Ok, now my 2 cents worth. Annalisa asked, "tell me what kind of ice cream you want, vanilla or chocolate"? What she got was questions about why she is serving ice cream, is she secretly trying to fatten us up and add to the obesity problem of the nation and that she should really use a scooper instead of a spoon to serve it. She is writing a thesis assigned in class and her teacher approved her idea. Period. She does not need comment on her motives, agenda, length of the thesis, etc. She just needs you comments about what you see as the pros and cons of women being involved in scouting. Obviously, they already ar involved at all levels and girls are at a certain stage. Her thesis is on what scouters see as the pros and cons of it. There are some good old boys that still think it stinks and their are some who feel the more the merrier. She wants to document the pulse of the issue. Why does anyone have to see an ulterior motive in that. Do you want vanilla or chocolate? You have 2 choices. The question is, as a scouter, what do you see as the pros and cons of women in scouting. Either answer the question asked or leave it alone. Anything else is beside the point.

 

Ok, Ok...that was 3 cents worth!

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kwc57,

 

Generally, individuals get very defensive when they are unsure of themselves. If one is confident of their position, a question about it is usually not perceived as a threat.

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acco40,

 

I agree.

 

I will admit that my original comments could have been stated more diplomatically. However, they did not constitute a verbal attack either...likewise for Bob's comments. If you don't want people to scoff at your ideas, then you need to present a coherent message. No one on this board is obligated to keep his/her opinions to themselves. In fact, to the contrary, we are encouraged to share and debate ideas. So, if you want to conduct a poll (whether you post it here or call my home), I'm going to ask why. I may even challenge your response. If that's too much for someone to handle, or if I'm going to be labeled un-Scout-like, so be it. My conscience is clear.

 

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I think we need to talk ourselves off the ledge here. Over the months, I've discovered there are several "hot button" issues that will guarantee agitated responses, all heartfelt. They are, in no particular order:

 

- Athiests in Scouting

- military BDUs with the Scout uniform

- Homosexuals in Scouting

- Are aluminum dutch ovens just as good as cast iron

- Women in Boy Scouting

- Should we salute in the activity shirt?

- You're not using the patrol method, you !@#$%^&

 

Maybe it'll help if we acknowledge that any posts on these topics will guarantee a rise out of everybody, and get ready for the salvos to start flying. Ever say something in excitement you didn't really mean, and if you could turn the clock back, you wouldn't have said it? I know I have...maybe I just did...or, as I said after our last camporee, when the water trailer ran low and we could only use water for cooking, drinking, and dishwashing: "I stink, therefore I am".

 

KS

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