Caving and Scouting

[dan 10]

In another thread caving came up, and I just wanted to share with you what the Guide to Safe Scouting says about caving.

 

Cave Exploring

 

These minimum safety requirements apply:

 

Cave exploring, other than simple novice activities, should be limited to Scouts and Venturers 14 years of age or older.

Group leaders qualify through training and experience in cave exploring and through knowing established practices of safety, conservation, and cave courtesy.

Leader and group must understand and agree to follow the basic practices and policies of caving approved by the National Speleological Society and the Boy Scouts of America.

References: Venture activity pamphlet, Caving, No. 33446A, and Ranger Guidebook, No. 3128A

 

 

[LauraT7 13]

our boys have gone caving every year for 3-4 yrs now. I have a feeling it wasn't done "by the book" - esp since they were told this year that the cave system they had always gone to was "off limits" because parts of it went underground on someone else's property - and the person who allowed them to use the caves had NOT gotten permision to let others use those parts of the caves. (he ran a private cave exploration /campground at the cave entrances, which WERE on his property.)

 

the acting SM is trying to find out if we can get permission to use parts of those caves, or a different place - but it makes me wonder -

 

If something happened to one of the boys, would we be covered? i doubt it. Many of the boys who went in the past are NOW 13 - and I don't think the guy who let them camp and explore his caves went with them. I think OUR old SM and ASM's took them in. That they are well known & used is beside the point - they were down on their bellies crawling through some 5" wet places, and water they were told was "probably polluted, so wash your hands good before lunch!"

 

I'm not being wishy washy about muck - my theory is that the dirtier a boy gets the higher his happiness gauge! If he isn't dirty on a campout - he's probably not having fun!

 

But I don't want to have a boy injured or killed and have to explain it to his parents, either. Especially if the trip was NOT BSA sanctioned.

 

I don't think there is any BSA certification in caving (like safety afloat or Climb safely) But shouldn't there be some kind of certified guide? are there caving certifications? official spelunking guides?

 

What defines "novice activities" from others? (although i think crawling on your belly through water with a helmet and headlamp would probably NOT be "novice" level.)

 

Also, does this classify as "high adventure" and should they have appropriate health forms on file before being allowed to participate?

 

 

 

 

[johnmbowen 10]

Well, its been nearly a month since the last message, but we also do caving, and we include vertical caving.

 

All of the above is correct. Caving is a very high adventure activity. It is also a completely self supported activity. If you get into a position where you need rescue...you must do it yourself. Outside of high altitude climbing or Class III+ rafting on remote rivers done by yourself, this is as good as it gets.

 

Yes, they need all the med forms, but even more importantly, the leaders, as well as the Scouts need a great deal of training in the activity itself. Most dont have it. Shoot, most Scout Troops don't have training in more than backpacking! BUT, you can get it, but not from the Scouts, who when you get down to it approach all "high adventure" activities with a CYA attitude. Get your training from NSS cavers. We have several including myself, and we spare them no training, including re-belays, heel hangs, and most of all Cave Ethics. This is the key. When all the participants are well prepaired, well trained, and obey all the obvious rules, and have respect for where they are...well, you don't have troubles. We call our experts Specialist ASMs, and we only bug them when we go.

 

 

[LauraT7 13]

ok - so we've been caving in our troop for years and doing it WRONG and in an unsafe manner. We do NOT have the people who ARE or are likely to GET trained properly.

 

In actuality - this is reasonable as we don't live in an area where there are caves or where caving is popular.

 

And after doing REAL caving, however wrong, our boys would find a "walking tour" of a cave extremely boring

 

SO....

 

Are there places to go in the midwest where there are experienced and trained guides that will take a group in and teach them REAL caving? We are in northern Illinois, near Rockford - and driving distance is an issue for a weekend trip.

 

If anyone has any suggestions, our boys would be extremely grateful!

 

 

 

[johnmbowen 10]

Laura 77

 

Here are the addresses of several grottos in Illinois. Sorry, my geog is not good enough to know which is nearest you. Following are several NSS (National Speological Soc.) clubs (Called Grottos). They will know where the caves are, and are the groups of experts that you are going to be interested in.

 

I suspect that the cave you went to is what cavers call a "sacrifice cave" meaning that this cave is known to the public, well climbed through and beyond the point of repair. These are what we start our guys in, and our guys have to get several practice runs in before getting to go to a real wild cave.

 

When you call though, you may have to call several groups. Be aware that most cavers (well, most outdoorspeople) are suspicious of Scouting in general due to the generally roudy and unprepaired Scout groups who get into their particular loved bit of wilderness leaving trash, devistation, and are even arrogant about it. Many need to be resuced even! I am one of those outdoorspersons...but rather than being part of the problem of polarization, I elected to train the Troop who became MY guys. I have since never looked back.

 

Though your adults will probably not train, there is the other way. Co-opt the experts to become Assistant Scoutmaster Specialists who work with the kids only on that particular section, and who will go with them (small groups are best). It works...I was co-opted by a group that did want to learn, was conservative with the resources and was open minded enough to see a better way than the perception of exclusivity of expertise in the outdoors that often pervades adult Scouters. Talk to any Ranger privatly.

 

Also be aware that most caves are so rare and loved that these people will NOT tell you where they are unless your group takes cave ethics to heart. Remember, the caver's bit of wilderness is irreparibly destroyed in an instant by even well intentioned, but clumbsy youngsters. However, don't let that stop you.

 

Get hold of them, approaching them with the desire to learn and some at least will teach.

 

My caver friends came over when they saw how well my guys were trained, and how caring they could be.

The guys wanted bad to learn more and listened very carefully. We have done really great things, and the people who led them are our co-opted NSS cavers.

 

With this same attitude, we have done lots of nice things...(see Oct 2002 issue of Boy's Life on the Mexico trip). Co-opting the experts really works, and we have no problems with retention of boys.

 

There are several great deals on the internet about caving, including caving and Scouts (a good one that I have lost written by an NSS person.) NSS home page is http://www.caves.org/

 

Well, here they are:

Little Egypt Grotto

[E-mail: donbittle@yahoo.com]

c/o Geology Department

Southern Illinois University - MCI4324

Carbondale, IL 62901-4324

Crawlway Courier

 

Near Normal Grotto

PO Box 813

Normal, IL 61761

Near Normal News

 

Rock River Speleological Society

c/o Alan Wellhausen

[E-mail: alcaver@hotmail.com]

10240 W. National Ave. - #176

West Allis, WI 53227

Rock River Irregular

 

Sub-Urban Chicago Grotto

c/o Gary Gibula

3 S 511 Fourth St.

Warrenville, IL 60555-3313

Sub-Urban Troglo-News

 

Windy City Grotto

[E-mail: rearland@midway.uchicago.edu]

c/o Fred Schumann

2252-A Baldwin

Palatine, IL 60074

Windy City Speleonews

 

 

My advice is to contact each and see if anyone is interested in presenting a program for your Troop. Good Luck!

 

 

[LauraT7 13]

WOW!

 

What a great list! that should keep me occupied this winter!

 

I'll certainly call around and see what I can find out - most of the cities/ locations I recognise, or can at least find - The Grotto in Carbondale, I recognise, as I went to college in Carbondale - Little Egypt, Fat Man's Squeeze, and the Shawnee National Forest, while a few hours away, have alot to offer a scout troop.

 

the others are closer -

 

Thank you SO MUCH! the boys will be very happy!