Uniforming: Rules without consequences?

[BadenP 93]

Geessh 83 Eagle

 

The kid showed up to the meeting at least, and maybe his uniform is in the wash, in any case to impose any kind of consequence on the boy runs contrary to the message and spirit of scouting. This is a cub scout, any type of punishment for not having or not wearing a uniform to a meeting is against scouting policy, but you should already know that from your training.

[desertrat77 1144]

No uniform? "Glad you are here!" No consequences.

 

Eventually he may see the need to get on board, but if not, that is okay too. The fact that he keeps showing up is the most important thing. It speaks highly of the program.

 

Twenty years from now, the most valued aspect of his scouting days will not be if he wore a uniform or not. The uniform is a means, not the end.

[83Eagle 11]

Good ideas on the various reward systems. I do like the ticket idea for every "part" you have.

 

Yes, I get that the uniform is not the be-all-end-all of scouting. That is not why I asked this question. But the fact is that Cub Scouting does have a uniform along with its own officical BSA "Cub Scout Uniform Inspection Sheet," form number 34282. Our parents are told to buy one (and I hardly think our Pack is unique in that regard). So clearly "we" are saying "this is important." And if it's important, the natural question follows of whether it should have a consequence if it is not followed? If there is no consequence, does that make it unimportant? Why have the standard if it does not matter if it is followed?

 

These are simply the questions I was thinking of and why I asked for a poll of what other Packs do in this open forum. There seems to be a number that do uniform inspections, and who present rewards for good uniforming. This is useful information for me.

 

In my mind, the sports uniforming analogy works well because most kids play, and yes kids do NOT play if they do not have their proper gear. However, you will note that I NEVER was suggesting to do the same in Cub Scouts--only to use it as an analogy that kids understand. Unlike in sports where you need to tell the red and green team apart, in Cub Scouts the uniform is another (not the only) way to build a sense of team and belonging.

 

As to folks like basement and Baden...there's a nice way to answer questions and then there's the snarky and sarcastic way that you choose so often. You could stand to look in a mirror once in a while using your own "advice" as a guide.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

[Jeffrey H 25]

But, if you show up without your CS uniform, you...???

I say hello with a big smile and "glad you are here." If the young man is without his uniform, he already knows that and is self-conscience about it. I welcome him and affirm him as a person of great worth regardless of the uniform. I just awarded the Bobcat Badge to a young man at our Pack Meeting who did not have his uniform yet. He seemed to be more impressed and proud of his Bobcat than the boys who were in uniform.

Uniforming is generally not a problem in our Pack, but we do give time for new scouts that have recently joined to obtain it. Parents do want a uniform for their sons but need some time to get it. Usually, after a month of meetings, most new scouts have their uniforms. Occassionally, we will have some new scouts thathave financial needsand we will privately address getting hima uniform. We don't require uniform pants, but we do require all other uniform parts (belt, shirt, neckerchieft and slide). Hats are optional.

Consequences of not wearing the uniform? I don't have any. A boy without his uniform will feel left out in our Pack. If he continues to notwear his uniform, a friendly conversation with the young man is needed to determine why.(This message has been edited by Jeffrey H)

[Basementdweller 608]

83.....

 

There are all types asking questions here rich folks, poor folks, city folks, country folks, type A folks type Z folks

 

It is hard to know who is asking the question and the purpose behind the question.

 

you claim to be a long time scouter. but your questions and attitude speak otherwise. It might be your isolated scouting situation, I don't know.

 

But your question was about uniforming and the consequences for not wearing one.

 

 

As Baden pointed out uniforms are not required and it was covered in your training.

 

As far as my response goes, unless you provide the uniform how do you require it????

 

Consequences are for things like fighting, swearing, vandalism and not living the scout law, not for lack of uniforms.

 

Send a few boys home who don't have their uniform on, I bet in a couple of weeks your Pack will get smaller and smaller and smaller..........

[Beavah 205]

And if it's important, the natural question follows of whether it should have a consequence if it is not followed? If there is no consequence, does that make it unimportant? Why have the standard if it does not matter if it is followed?

 

Yah, 83Eagle, I reckon that some of us are responding to comments like this, eh? You've said it several times, and I really think it's exactly da wrong way to think and act as a scout leader, but especially inappropriate for cub scoutin'. Might work fine in certain adult workplace environments or with your own kids, but not so much elsewhere.

 

There are lots of social norms and standards that exist and are important without defined and authority-imposed "consequences", at least in this life. All of the Scout Oath and Law, in fact. What are the "consequences" of not doing our best in our duty to God or Country? And yet, even without "consequences" those are the most important things we teach. How many of us impose "consequences" when a scout doesn't Help Other People at All Times, and would that really be the right way to teach generosity of spirit?

 

Yeh have to think about this stuff differently. Scouting is not a game of reward and punishment. It's a game of Inspiration - of inspiring young people to be good group members, good citizens, good people.

 

And I ain't ever seen a boy truly inspired by "consequences", eh? And if we're not inspiring the lads, then we really need to think about a different line of volunteer work.

 

Beavah

 

[83Eagle 11]

Send a few boys home who don't have their uniform on, I bet in a couple of weeks your Pack will get smaller and smaller and smaller..........

 

And I said this...where??? I specifically stressed the opposite in my response above. Please do me the courtesy of reading what I actually write, and not assigning statements to me that I did not say.

 

I am experienced (not as much as some here) and trained (not as much as some here) but I do not claim to know it all. Which is why I ask questions. I also know that the BSA emphasizes the importance of uniforms and, in fact, uses the same sports analogy I mentioned.

 

Maybe the word "consequences" was poorly chosen. Go back to my original question: "If you show up without your CS uniform, you...???" And the answers to that are as varied as the number of people posting.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

[Renax127 70]

I have only one rule about uniforms, If they are going to wear it they need to wear it properly. I also told each and every parent I do not care if the boys wear a uniform ever. I want the boys there learning and having fun, the uniform is the very least of my concerns about the boys.

[Basementdweller 608]

I have bought probably 20 cub uniforms over the years for boy who have not been able to afford them.

 

Those boys absolutely treasured them. I probably get more out of giving them the uniform than the boy is......The joy and excitement in their eyes is magical. They take great pride in wearing it.

 

While they weren't always clean or ironed those boys most generally wear them to every meeting and event.

 

 

Next Pack meeting, for every boy that has his uniform on have a bag of halloween candy bars and hand them out, next den meeting night do the same thing. You will see the change in a month or so.

 

 

 

 

[83Eagle 11]

Listen everyone, I fear I may have conveyed an impression that I am standing in front of the room with a whip and a maginifying glass while the little brown shirts march past me under the light of a single bare bulb.

 

In reality everyone who shows up with his blue shirt for an announced-in-advance "inspection" gets a patch, and everyone does have a uniform because either the parents buy one retail or from our cub closet for a few bucks, or because we provide the scout one. I don't think that's too egregious and it follows the BSA literature but that's just me.

 

The question actually originated from a parent complaint (which I don't need to get into), and the rest are thoughts bobbing around in my head based on that and trying to reconcile BSA terminology like "should" "important" and, yes, even the dreaded "regulations" (see http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Parents/Awards/Parents.aspx) with what is right, proper, and practical.

 

But based on this forum beatdown, it's probably better to let thoughts thoughts percolate longer in my head before spilling them into print.

 

 

[BadenP 93]

83Eagle

 

Well this "snarky" poster responded in kind to the almost beligerant tone of your original post. As others here have pointed out to you it is okay to give a SMALL reward to those boys in uniform without making a big deal out of it or punishing the others.

It sounded to me from your post like you rule your pack with an iron fist and that is unfair to the boys, and simply not allowed in scouting, especially with Cubs.

[83Eagle 11]

Well, I would suggest that you are drawing lots of conclusions about me from a post that simply posed an open ended question of "what do you do?" I don't see anything beligerent in it at all, though of course I'm looking at through my viewpoint.

 

You'll note I never said what we (not "I"--it is not "my" pack) do. In fact, we don't do anything about lack of a uniform. We don't berate the boys, we don't harrass the boys, we don't send them home, we don't do anything other than occasionally ask about it. That was sort of the whole point of asking the question, to take a poll of what was out there in terms of opinions and practices. "What are the practices out there?" was all I asked. And I got lots of feedback, including yours. That's a good thing.

 

Again, I thought I made that clear, but things aren't always as clear in writing as they seem to be in my head. I'm sorry if it came across that way to you, but I still don't think it warranted the "Geesh! You should know that already" response, which is not the first time I've seen you treat people that way in these forums. But I'm also going to assume that your real-world personality is more tolerant of a lack of knowledge or differences of opinion than your online persona is.

 

But I'm a big boy, I'll get over it (This message has been edited by 83eagle)

[BadenP 93]

83Eagle

 

Ok maybe I did come on a little strong to your post, mea culpa. In my district currently we are seeing packs and troops in danger of folding because of leaders who are not trained, or are poorly trained in what scouting is supposed to be all about. Every week someone in our crew is approached by groups of boy scouts who want to leave their troops and join us because their leaders do not give them any real leadership opportunities, or input into the program. In several cub packs the leaders and parents are fighting among themselves about uniforms, who should be in charge, and what the program should be, as a result these packs are really struggling to hold on.

 

So when I read the premise of your post about "consequences" for not wearing a uniform to a pack meeting it sent up red flags. I agree that uniforms are an important part, but not a crucial part, of the scouting program. Too many units become fixated on holding uniform inspections at every meeting instead of delivering an awesome program to the boys. Maintaining a pack uniform bank is a great way to assure that all the boys feel a part of the pack instead of being singled out for not being dressed correctly, especially in these very difficult financial times. Good Luck with your pack.

[CalicoPenn 729]

It sounds to me that the issue really isn't a lad without a uniform, the issue is how to respond to a parent who is wondering why Bobby is treated no differently for not wearing a uniform from Johnny who does wear a uniform (or "why did I spend $100 on a uniform if not spending the money wouldn't have made a difference").

 

We can trot out the old "uniforms make us into a cohesive whole" and all the other positive blather that is in the literature* but I believe it really comes down to this as an answer to the parent:

 

"Every parent is responsible for their own child's Scouting Experience. This is not a competition between Cub Scouts and between families. Cub Scouts is about what you and your son will get out of the program. When your son wears his uniform, which you have provided to him and are lovingly caring for, do you notice a difference in him? Do you notice he steps out with a bit more pride and enthusiasm? Do you notice he gets excited when he puts the uniform on? Is he bugging you to sew (or help him sew) his latest award on his uniform before the next meeting? Have you noticed he acts just a little bit differently when he puts that uniform on? Do you think it enhances your son's Cub Scouting experience when he wears his uniform? Are you glad for your son, and take a little more pride in him, because he's wearing his uniform? Does it really matter what another Cub Scout wears as long as your son is the getting the best experience he can get?"

 

I think the key here is to take the parent's focus off the lad who isn't wearing the uniform, and put it back on to her son.

 

*ps - I just want to point out that I had not yet read the spin-off thread when I wrote this post and therefore was not influenced by Beavah when I used the term "blather" and then used it as a descriptive of information in BSA literature which is the same word and same context that Beavah had used before me in the spin-off post. Either GMTA or we're both stubbornly midwestern.(This message has been edited by calicopenn)

[83Eagle 11]

Yes, Calico, that is the question in this case, it's just that rather than focus on one specific episode I wanted a broader answer to the question.

 

The full backdrop is that we rotate among the webelos to plan and lead a flag ceremony, part of the webelos requirement. As part of that, the boy leader is charged with finding and organizing a color guard. Well, the particular webelos doing the choosing happened to pick a boy who was not in uniform to be in the color guard. I guess we never conveyed an instruction otherwise!

 

So, the flag ceremony starts and I can see a parent bending the ear of a parent next to her, obviously mad about something. Later I look and see that her scout is no longer wearing his uniform. I asked some of the other leaders about it after the meeting and it turns out that she had said, well if so and so doesn't need to wear a uniform to be in the color guard, why the he** did I go buy this one for you?

 

I did talk to the parent afterward, explain that yes we have a uniform guideline, the color guard was boy chosen, what can you do, etc.

 

But I didn't have an answer as eloquent as yours because to me the uniform has just been important, but I never thought about why. The more I thought about why, the more I struggled with, if it is important, etc etc etc as shown above.

 

So now you know the rest of the story, which I didn't state at first because it's just the backdrop. Obviously the parent issue is another whole thing to deal with...