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By the way....moms aren't allowed....

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In my troop women can come along if there are 2 of them and there is some privacy for them. (this is for their and the other male leaders protection) just like SM's don't sleep in the same tent as the boys.

Our problem is that the mom's don't know that they can go.


We have one mom, that when she comes to any activity makes it abotu 100 times better



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And another thing...Just thought about this after my last post! I'm a 40+ year veteran and it seems to me that in recent years parents (both moms and dads)have become more and more protective of their sons, maybe even overly so. I now hear "That boy called my son a name"; "There are too many mosquitoes where you camp"; "My son can't camp unless I am there"; "The games are too rough"; "We don;t like the older boys" etc. etc. etc. I'm sure these kind of complaints have been around forever, but my mom or dad would have said - GROW UP! GET USED TO IT! NO ONE SAID LIFE WOULD BE FAIR AND EASY!

Maybe its just a sign of the times and middle (old) age creeping up on me!

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"It's not a southern thing, or a Texas thing. It happens in other areas as well. I'm in the midwest and my son's troop only wants dads (or other male relatives) to go camping with the Troop. I've heard the "male bonding" comment from our leaders. Personally, I don't really want to go camping, so it's not a big deal to me. But there are some moms who want to camp and backpack - why shouldn't they be able to go?"


They shouldn't be able to go because the program wasn't created for them. The program was created for boys. Look I am telling you if you took a vote in my troop, mind you it would have to be a secret vote not to upset moms;-), my troop would vote for males only on camping trips. I am not saying moms don't understand the program or they can't contribute. I am just saying that most boys want to have a chance just to hang with other boys and men.


ASM1, I don't know why you are talking about a venture crew. I am talking about troops and the people on this board have been talking about troops as well. I belong in a venture crew and there are females in it. I have no problem with it and encourage them to come on trips. However, this is not the point. We are talking about BOY SCOUT TROOPS.


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I would agree with Rooster that women that camp and mother their boys cause problems. However, I would say I have seen a good many dads do the same thing. I always encourage parents to let their boys work the system, i.e., go to patrol leaders first, then to ASPL or SPL and finally to the SM or designee. I try to work with the parents to ensure they have something to do, even if it is only playing cribbage and drinking coffee. (Assigning an SA to keep the parents out of trouble is always a good idea.) Teaching them aims and methods and scout skills is helpful. If you can assign it to one of the older scouts, they get the idea very quickly. I have a couple of veteran JLTC staffers that just knock the socks off of new parents.


Our troop encourages all parents to come out. They need to see the program in action to appreciate and support their boys. Blanket exemptions against women or non scoutmasters undermine that support.


I would agree that it is not a southern thing. I know of several troops in my council that do not allow women to camp, period. At least one will not allow women on the committee. I got my old troop a couple of excellent women SA's as a result of that policy. Their boys stayed with the old troop and the camped with mine and did a great job.


Bob White is correct (as usual - what would I expect from a fellow Bobwhite), the CO chooses leaders. But often, they are not actively supporting the male only policies. In some cases, they are not aware they exist. So arguments that that is what the boys want may not actually indicate what is going on. Often, you have the old guard continuing what has been the tradition.


LDS troops run that way because the charter mandates it and I don't have an issue with that.


In the end, go back to Wood Badge traing and Know and Use Your Resources. Turn the problem parent into a resource in your unit.

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About the "if that is what the boys want" stance --- sorry, not a good one. What if the boys want the hot 20-something year old sisters to camp? Or the young 20-something year old mothers to camp? AND not the dads? Are you going to go for that?


It's about what is BEST for the boys which may not be what they want. I don't like the no moms allowed policies, but I understand the CO has the right to set their policies. Most moms really don't want to camp even if you allow them. They aren't going to take over the camp and make everyone paint their toenails.


I suspect most troops are that way because the men want it so they don't have to deal with the problem moms, not because the CO has some great goal of providing positive male role models.


No women on the committee? Now that is ridiculous. Where is the harm in that as long as they understand their role (i.e. are trained)?


Personally I hestitate about being a merit badge counselor for some of the badges more so than about camping with the boys. Why? Let's take stamp collecting for example. If I'm a stamp collector, the first and only one the boys have ever met, they may think stamp collecting is a "girl" thing. Same with the cooking merit badge having the boys talk to a chef. I would not have them talk to the nice little lady in the lunchroom, I would want them to meet a male chef/foodworker. That way know that this isn't just for women.


Nothing should be happening at camp that can't be said in front of the women. If there is, then I don't want my son there.


Remember character is what you do when no one is looking (especially your mom).


Want to have male bonding? Great. But the few scouters I've been around did not allow the boys to bond with them. They keep them away from the "adult area" by barking at them. Yep, that's bonding.


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Is it not a basic policy of BSA that all Scout functions are always open to all parents? If a mom agrees to abide by the Youth Protection rules, stick with the adult patrol, leave the boys alone, not hover, use an electric air mattress or commit any of the other sins of parental excess mentioned here, how can a unit prohibit them from attending?




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"About the "if that is what the boys want" stance --- sorry, not a good one."


Ummmm....Where did this come from? I never said let the boys have what they want. All I said is the boys in my troop would not want moms to be allowed on camping trips. Secondly, yeah let the boys have what they want as long as it is within good reason. Having only females on trips is not within good reason (unless you wanted to have a mother/son camping trip). Having only males on camping trips is within reason. Whether it is because they are more comfortable with men, because they just want to get away from their mothers, or because they want to have fun with guys(is having fun with only the guys wrong now?).(This message has been edited by YoungBlood)

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"If that is what the boys want" -


Actually, I was the one who posted that thought. And, I stand by it. No one is suggesting that we allow the boys to run-a-muck or to cater their every whim. Obviously, boys can make some pretty outlandish requests. However, I don't see anything immoral, unethical, or unlawful about this request. And, as I have heard many times over, this is a boy-run organization. If we're consistent, they should have a say in this. Perhaps the CO will disagreethat is their prerogative. Nevertheless, if the boys feel strongly about such an issue, they should have some input.


As to this "how can a unit prohibit them from attending?" - It's simple. The Charter Organization, if it so chooses, can impose these restrictions. The troop is "owned" jointly by BSA and the CO. BSA gives the CO this freedom.


Okay, I know we're into "dead horse beating" territory, so I'll try to back away. I'm just suggesting, while I personally enjoy the company of women on these trips, I see no harm in allowing the boys to impose their will in this matter. My only reservations would be - Does the troop have enough qualified adult male leaders? And of course, does the CO agree to such a restriction?(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

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Our Committee Chair is a woman and a Pediatrician, although she plays nothing on TV. She makes alot of the campouts. I cant tell you I have seen a discernible difference in behavior in the the boys or the adult leaders when she is there or not. I have read the posts and dont understand alot of the ideas presented. Then again, I dont uderstand a lot of things.(as many here will point out). Whether she is there or any other of our lady ASM's scoutmasters are, I wouldnt expect anyones behavior to change. If you are living the scout law, your mother could be invisible along side you and would be proud of every step you take.

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OGE, it figures that you wouldn't understand why behaviour changes when a woman is around. Farting contests are not violations of the Scout Law but social convention says that if you must fart when a woman other than your wife is present, you should excuse yourself, leave the room, and fart outside.

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Looking at page four of the green Guide to Safe Scouting, under the sub-section No secret organizations, it says in bold type: All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.


Hard to observe a program if you cant attend it. The CO has the right to approve or deny registering someone as a leader, but unless the boy's membership is revoked, how do you remove someone as a Scout parent?



(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

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You are correct in your sighting f the G2SS that parents can observe ant activity. However a good example of the G2ss and the CO right to set their own rules are reflected in the troops chartered by religious organizations such the LDS church.


They would rather have male leaders on cmapouts (at least the few units I have known). Any parent can observe but they prefered that only the dads camped overnight. this practice was within there right as a CO to have a program that respected there beliefs and comfort and was in keeping with the G2SS.


I would agree that if you said neither the mother or father could stay overnight that such a practice violates the BSA policies, but to stay only one parent can stay the night does not.


Bob White

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I've been observing the lively discussion, and have a few things to add:


1. The quote about "being in the south" isn't mine, it belongs to a woman who

has lived here for 20 years, and considers herself a Texan.


2."What the boys want"? My son just wanted me to come along, maybe once. I

camped with him when he was a Cub and a Webelos. He wanted me to come

with him because he actually likes his mom around! (Yes, I'm sure it

will wear off soon, it's already starting to.)


3. "They shouldn't be able to go because the program wasn't created for them. The program was created for boys." -This argument would make sense if the issue were about GIRLS going on Boy Scout campouts. But it's about moms. The program wasn't created for dads either...


4. At least half of the den leaders in our pack are moms. The "Den Leader"

title didn't even exist until the 1970's...it was "Den Mother" before

then (according to an article I found on the web). The Cub Scout program

was created for the BOYS! But wait....we need

den leaders, so we'll settle for the moms. They're available and they

volunteered. Hey, moms, teach the boys to camp. Help them get their

badges. Lead them as they "cross over"....Whoa, hold on just a minute! You

don't think you're going to camp with the Boy Scouts, do you? What do

you think this is, lady, the Cub Scouts??



5. The original post was about camping once or twice. We (those women who

seem to share the same opinion) don't want to change how the troop camps.

We don't want to march in and start designing curtains for the tents!

We don't want to stop you from eating food that feel on the ground (but we

may suggest that you brush it off!) Really, we don't want to invade

(Ve vill take over zis troop! HaHaHaHaha!).


6. I don't think a mom would impose herself on a camping trip that if her

son didn't want her to come along.


Points I think were well made here:

"Hey, there's a difference between giving the guys some space (reasonable) and prohibiting mom's from camping (while evidently legal, a poor message to send to the boys). It sounds like the latter in this instance.

Besides which, if the troop is boy-led, ALL the adults except those with specific duties (read SM, etc.) should be keeping their distance." -DrBeado





"Moms on overnight that have gone with us must/should understand that they in a male oriented activity. A little dust,ash, etc does not mean the meal is ruined, etc,etc. If a mom wants to go on overnights I would hope that she would understand what the purpose of the overnight is , not a getting away but as been stated a bonding of boys to leaders that they may not have the opportunity to have otherwise. Overnights are scout time and PC may not be followed, but that is part of growing up. Let the moms camp but do not change the program intended except to ensure the proper decorum." -red feather


"Is it not a basic policy of BSA that all Scout functions are always open to all parents? If a mom agrees to abide by the Youth Protection rules, stick with the adult patrol, leave the boys alone, not hover, use an electric air mattress or commit any of the other sins of parental excess mentioned here, how can a unit prohibit them from attending?"-Twocubdad


Sctmom, your views are right in line with my own.

Thanks to those of you who are keeping the issue in perspective!




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