Unfair Pinewood Derby Race

[rtullier 10]

Could someone tell me how to report an unfair Pinewood Derby race? I would like to see the problem areas remedied before this Pack is allowed to run another race.

 

 

Track was faulty

 

The end block bounced cars back unevenly causing derailing of several cars which led to them being damaged against the finish line device and causing several cars to collide upon recoil and damage other cars

Misalignment at the track section interfaces caused car wheels to leave the track. No attempt was made to repair. Since the overall winners were determined by points which were derived from the finish position of each car, the scoring could not have been fair. Cars running in the damaged lanes were penalized. All the cars did not have equal disadvantage because of different weight distribution, etc.

Scoring and race runs were not proper

 

The software used to place cars for racing did not randomize the cars.

i. Division races were run with 3 rounds of races

ii. Each race within each round had 3 cars racing

iii. Each corresponding race from each round raced the same 3 cars against one another in the same lanes. So, every round was identical to the others.

 

Repairs to damaged cars was not allowed. This goes against every posted set of rules on the internet that I came across. This was NOT stated in the rules.

Overall 2nd and 3rd place were cars by scouts of 2 of the 3 familys parents running the event. The 3rd place overall winner was the scout whose parent designed the end block. Not a problem in itself but, they had knowledge of the track (ie the end block) that allowed them to design a car that could withstand the impact.

No official rules were given prior to the race

The details of the track were not disclosed prior to the race (ie, end block which impacted the cars)

[Twocubdad 665]

I assume this was a pack event, which generally means no one outside the pack is going to want to get involved. The pack committee is going to be the final word.

 

But you want some been-there, done-that, got-the-patch advice?

 

Forget it. "Reporting" the problems isn't going to accomplish anything.

 

You want to make sure things run better next year, volunteer to next year's PWD chairman. Ask to take the track home and tune it up. Or find out what would be involved in buying or building a new one. Research the various methods of running races to randomize the parings and lane assignments. If you'll research some of the past threads here, there are all sorts of suggestions for making PWD fun for the boys. OUr pack had an old track which was set up in the corner and boys who were eliminated fromthe competition were allowed run their cars to their hearts' content on the open division. One pack set up a big screen TV with a digital camera and replayed close finishes in slow motion. Lots of packs have pizza and snacks.

 

BE POSITIVE! Your approach should be that this year's race wasn't much fun (but forget the reasons why) and you want to make sure the boys have fun next year.

[qwazse 4344]

What twocub said.

 

More importantly, listen to your boys now that the race is over. What do they say? Do they want to try again next year? Are they trying to build a similar track for racing their cars at home?

 

If so, then you probably want to volunteer to help work on that track and rules/regs for next year. That will also mean talking to other packs in your district to find out how they operate.

 

For what it's worth, that software is a hassle. A necessary evil, but a pain nonetheless.

[Scoutfish 16]

Yep! Get on or chair next years PWD committee.

 

It it was that bad of a race, well, I'm sure alot of people will speak up for change next year.

 

But I do want to clarify on one detail you mentioned:

 

" All the cars did not have equal disadvantage because of different weight distribution, etc. "

 

There's nothing wrong or unfair about that. Every car builder gets to put their weight to where they think it helps their car perform the best it can.

 

I like to see the weights about 1" in front of the rear tires...unless the design of the car merits it elsewhere. There is no universal weight placement for cars. That in itself would create weight disadvantages based on the shape, style and design of the car.

 

If you create a standard required weight placement, you will have to create and require a standard required shape too.

 

Me? I got on the PWD committee to ensure even application of all rules and to make sure everybody folloed then to be fair to the cubs.

 

Belioeve it or not, it's usually non leader parents who try to push the bar or get around rules.

 

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[ScoutNut 147]

Packs do not need "permission" to run a Pinewood Derby(PWD). It is simply part of their unit program. Any "reporting" of an "unfair" race will simply look/sound like sour grapes because you son(s) did not win.

 

I agree with Twocubdad, a much better solution would be to talk to your Pack's Committee Chair(CC), and offer to be the PWD Chair next year.

 

Once you are Chair, or even on the the Committee of the PWD, you will be in a much better place from which to make improvements.

[5yearscouter 52]

1. faulty track

our pack uses a wooden track that is at least 20 years old, made by hand when the pack ran it's first race. Each year there are a few complaints about the track having some faster than other lanes, or lanes that aren't smooth. each year we suggest that the parents that don't like the track figure out a fundraiser to buy the brand new fancy metal tracks that everyone would want to see. The closest fix we've ever gotten is someone counter sunk all screws so none stuck out to catch a car. someone this year sanded and repainted the track and then applied a bit of wax to make everything smoother.

If one lane is faster than another lane, you run all cars on all lanes. makes the race take longer, but then everyone gets the same amount of good lanes and bad lanes. our track is a 4 lane track and each car runs down each lane the same number of times.

 

finish lines for tracks all have the common problem. how to stop the cars from continuing off the end of the track without damaging the cars. help them come up with another idea to stop the cars without much bounce back and limit damage.

 

2. how a pack decides to run a race is not standardized. some packs issue the scouts tickets they can run down the track in any lanethey want against each person they want until they run out of tickets. in this type of race, there may be no awards, or each time a scout wins they may get a ticket to race more. if they get a ticket for winning against certain cars, the boys may choose to race those same cars over and over again.

 

the pack may decide to do single elimination, double elimination, perfect n, or all sorts of other things. Help them to find a way to run cars that seems to take care of the faster lane issue and how to 'race off' those who won against each other. there is no perfect answer, each way of racing has advantages and disadvantages, including how much time and patience you have.

 

a perfect race would have each car race on the same lane one time, record times and put them in fastest to slowest order. but that is absolutely NO FUN for the boys and teaches nothing about sportsmanship.

 

3. depending on time, fixing damaged cars may just not work. we usually give them 2-3 minutes to try to super glue things that break, but due to the limitations of where we race, we have to be done by a certain time or else, we don't spend much time fixing broken cars. we do have certificates for "the car that would have won if it's tire didnt' fall off," or the "jumped off the track and broke" car award.

 

4. who wins has no bearing on who was running the races. we try to mix up our track judges so those who have kids running in that race aren't judging that race, but it doesn't always work out. so if we get 2 people who will do the whole thing for 4 hours, we probably will just let them sit there. sometimes their kid wins because dad is very interested in derby racing and finds it important and fun himself. when dad start making the kids car and not letting the kid touch his own car, we give dad a car kit and have a dad's(or all adult) race for those overcompetitive parents. Perhaps you need to enter such a race yourself?

5. suggest the pack issue official rules, however, most packs will run the rules of what's in the box that the block of wood and wheels comes in and that's their only rules. size and weight requirements. often the actual "HOW WILL WE RUN THIS RACE" is no determined until a day or two before the race.

6. ending blocks do not impact how fast a car will run. and there really is NOT a way to design a car that will withstand running into the end of the track with a lot of force. it's usually just sheer luck as to which cars break and which cars don't.

 

There is no overseeing body to report a pack race issue with except the Pack committee that runs the pack with the cubmaster. If you go with complaints, go with answers, and be prepared to run the next race yourself.

 

depending on your attitude and accusatory manner when you go into a committee meeting to complain about the derby, you may find 1 you are now in charge of it or 2 the derby is cancelled for next year due to parental complaints.

When our council received too many parental complaints about the council derby, ending with fisticuffs and police being called due to irate parents, council just cancelled having anything but "just for fun,no prizes" council derby.

 

I ask, how big is the trophy that your pack gives out?

 

[Lisabob 13]

"Report?" To whom? You do realize, don't you, that pretty much every cub scout event, meeting, campout, etc., is completely run by volunteers? What are you going to do, fire them? How about thanking them for all the time they've donated so that there was a cub pack for you & your kid to join, instead?

 

No matter what may have gone wrong, there is no call for adults to behave badly over what is supposed to be a fun kids' program. That includes attempting to "report" volunteers who may have bungled things, but probably were trying their level best under less than ideal conditions (and I'm sure they already know that there were problems). If you are that unhappy with how things turned out this year, get involved as a volunteer (with a positive attitude), yourself.

 

 

I also want to point out that all of the complaints you list are things that ADULTS may get all twisted over, but KIDS aren't going to give a whit about. Kids simply like building and racing cars. They don't care whether they know what the end stop material is made of or anything of the sort.

 

Pinewood is about having a fun experience where you work together with your boy to build a neat car and then watch it zoom down the track. It only becomes about the things you listed when adults loose sight of the purpose, and of their priorities.

 

 

(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[momof2cubs 10]

Whoa. Reporting?? I usually associate reporting within scouting with nothing less than a criminal activity. A PWD?? Guys, is a GAME. It's for fun.

 

My advice is to move on and next year, YOU lobby hard to get on the PWD committee. I'm guessing everyone will be delighted to give you the "job".

 

And just for you-know-whats and giggles, what are you hoping to accomplish by "reporting" them? They get a spank on the bottom? They get "fired" from their volunteer jobs? It goes on their permanent record? What is your goal?

[rtullier 10]

Thanks to everyone for their time in responding. This is one of many ways that the scouting community makes a difference.

 

This was our first year in scouts and we learned many lessons that will make the upcoming years both fun and a positive growth experience for both my son and me. All of the responses suggest getting involved; and rightly so. If I had not participated and helped, I would feel less justified in being critical. Just to set the record straight, this year, I made and donated a cabinet to store up to 144 cars for race day. It seemed like an easy task but like most things it took quite a bit of time to do it right. It is something that will last a lifetime and I am proud to have done it, not just for myself and the act of giving back, but for my son to see and learn from. My son and I made three dummy cars to run in races with fewer than three cars. I helped on the day of assessing and approving the cars as well as the entire day of the race, including clean up. I also was a co Den Leader for our Den.

 

As parents, I feel it is our right and moreover our duty, to provide an environment that is both safe and as fair as possible given the world in which we exist. If my son did not have a fair playing field in school, little league or wherever, I hope I have the courage and strength to ask for change.

 

Twocubdad:

Good advice about getting involved!

I have already inserted myself into next years race committee, and will do my best to make it a more fair race. It is a real struggle to be positive when you experience your children being treated unfairly. Instinctively I want to protect him, but at the same time I know I cant protect him from everything and I need to set a good example from which he can learn.

Thanks

 

Scoutfish:

Just to clarify my point about having an unequal disadvantage. I agree that all participants should have the freedom to weight their cars as they see fit. I meant that due to those differences, a problematic track will affect each car differently just because of the physics of each individual car.

 

ScoutNut:

I hesitated posting because of the sour grapes persona it might create. I honestly only want as fair of an environment as possible and let the best car win. Given a clean race, we may or may not have won, my contention is that we werent given a fair shot.

 

5yearscouter:

3.. I like that additional award you give! All of the rules that came up in my search gave the boys five minutes or less to repair the car unless it was damaged by another car or the track, in which case they got more time and an opportunity for more help. It only seems fair to allow a minimal time for repair. I think it teaches fairness and that you should learn from your mistakes. The main goal is for the boys to learn and have a positive experience.

4..My point here was that these car designers had knowledge of the track that no one else had access to, nor was given. I was not at all insinuating anything sinister on their part. It gave them an advantage.

 

Lisabob:

It is obvious that you assumed that I had no basis for pointing out problems. Please refer to my statements above about my involvement in the scouts. I never stated that I wanted to report the volunteers. I want to report the unfairness of the circumstances of the race without assigning blame.

 

momof2cubs:

As I stated above, I dont want to report anyone. I wanted to find out if there was a formal way to complain and therefore possibly give a BSA representative an opportunity to respond. If no one complains about an inequity, it is bound to continue. I figured that if there was a process by which a BSA official would formally speak with the Pack Leader, it would carry more weight and authority than one or more parents.

 

[AlamanceScouter 10]

In this instance the only entity to "report" to is the Pack's Chartered Organization. If you "report" it to the BSA they will tell you to go to your CO.

[momof2cubs 10]

Cubmasters do care about the parents. They do care about doing a good job. I am pretty confident that everyone will welcome your input on next year's race if you are willing to work it.

 

I think that most adults leaders would be seriously miffed at having someone go over their heads to tell on them. I know I would MUCH rather have a parent talk to me directly with their concerns in a calm, polite manner than having them go to the district or council and put me in the position of having to defend myself.

 

You got some really sound advice on this board from these guys. I'm sure you'll take it to heart. These guys (and most of the adult leaders I have met in real life) truly believe in the program and want to provide a great experience for everyone.

[rtullier 10]

Thanks AlamanceScouter.

 

momof2cubs:

Thanks again for your time in thinking through these issues. I am not interested in laying blame, I simply want a more fair race environment and I am willing to do my part to make that happen.

 

I tried discussing the issues at the race. Having participated in the event I felt it reasonable to discuss it with the other leaders. Their responses ranged from indifference to outright nastiness about allowing the boys minimal repair time. It is only because of their attitudes that I would like to push it up the chain.

[Lisabob 13]

Rtullier, every parent has a right to point out what they perceive as problems and everybody - you, the other pack leaders, other parents - wants a good experience for their kids. The assumption I was (and am) operating under is not that you shouldn't voice your opinion, but rather, that you need to do it in a constructive manner. Otherwise, you will simply create ill-will and quite possibly, contribute to the implosion of a cub pack. I have seen this happen in real life and I know from first-hand experience, how hard it can be for packs to recover from problems created by adults.

 

While all you mention may be fair ground for future improvements, "reporting" is a bit over the top in a children's program staffed by volunteers. Further, the day of the race is not a good time to try to get changes made - too much else going on, and last-minute changes are bound to go poorly or upset still other people. I am not surprised that you didn't get a positive reaction to your requests for changes at/during the race.

 

With regard to chain of command stuff - if you have not yet done so, I encourage you to take cub leader training (which is now available on line). It will clarify the way cub packs are supposed to be set up. If you continue to feel a need to "go up the chain," I suggest you begin with your pack committee. You might also want to think long and hard about "reporting" things of this nature to your pack's charter organization. The plain truth is that many packs have a hands-off charter org that do not want to be involved in every petty adult squabble about car races (sorry, but that's what this will look like to the uninvolved CO). At a minimum, expect your CO to ask exactly what you want them to do about it? Are you willing to step in and replace the pack's committee chair or cubmaster over this issue? If not, tread lightly. If so, you'd better be ready for fall-out and internal power struggles among the rest of the pack's parents who may disagree with you. I have seen COs dump entire packs (kill the pack) rather than sort out adult squabbling like this. Know your CO well, before you decide to go this route.

 

And about fairness: a lot of times, what children perceive as "unfair" and what adults perceive as "unfair" really differ. Many times, the boys would be happy to just race their cars. And since life is inherently unfair, there is something to be said for teaching by example that there are better and worse ways to deal with the occasional curve ball we are thrown.

 

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

There ought to be a square knot for cub leaders who survive PWD. Understand that while PWD can be the highlight of the year for the boys, parents can make it a tremendous pain for the leaders. You may be absolutely correct in your observations and perfectly reasonable in your approach, but the last three parents who had the same point were all jacka**es. You may be paying for their sins.

 

As Momo2 suggests, the pack leaders aren't in this because they enjoy tormenting boys. Many PWD rules and procedures are in place to correct some over-the-top transgression in the past. Perhaps the "no repair" rule was instituted because some parent's idea of a "repair" was to add weight or swap out axles after the car was inspected? Maybe the guy who set up the bumper spent 13 hours the day before trying to turn you pack's sow's ear track into a silk purse and just doesn't want to hear anymore about it? (I got the t-shirt AND patch for that one.)

 

For better or worse, many Tiger parents come away from their first PWD shell-shocked wondering what the heck just happened. Your post sound like you have a healty attitude toward the process, although not a lot of knowledge or experience in how cub packs operate. Unfortunately, may leaders have learned through grim experience that a parent who wants to "discuss" or "report" issues with the race is just another jacka** ticked off because their son lost.

 

The antidote to that is having a great deal of empathy for the pack leaders. I'll bet they see the same problems with the track, but I also bet they spent a lot of time setting it up. I bet they also spent a lot of time trying to get boys to sell popcorn last fall to raise money for the pack. And organizing the campout. And Blue & Gold. And last week's den meeting....

[Scoutfish 16]

Being the first year in scouts, it is a big learning year.

 

For example, while I agree that the stop block does need to be changed based on your description, you have to realize that it isn't set up to help or hurt one group of cars over another. A block is just that...a block. You can't really control how it helps or hurts cars other than it does it the same for everybody.

 

AS far as how races are set up...scan through the forums or do a search on PWD and see how many times this is brought up.

Youy want to know what the perfect sysytem is? So does everybody else. If you find it, let the rtest ogf us know.

 

Our pack bought a program trhat goes with our electronic timer/finish gate.

No eyeballing the finish. Whet theb timer says is what the timer says. MPH and times are projected on a wall for everybody to see and the timer at the end of the track shows finishing position of 1,2,3, or 4.

 

AS for staopping, our ramp raises up in the middle of the lane as to pick the car wheels off the track...but sometimes a really slick painted car that is fast will slide past the stop ramp.

 

Our soulutin? A sweatshirt stuffed into a milk crate. Works great!

 

Times are final.

 

All cars race each lane once and all heats are random selected bu the program. All cars race 4 times and the slowest time is dropped by the program.

 

Now, we just got an aluminum track this past year after years of using wood tracks.

 

Parents would complain, dads especially. Scouts - not so much.

 

What we did was p[oint out that if everybody from our pack donated $10.00, that would pay for the track, and then the cars hitting edges or having un even lanes would go away. Humidity and temperature wouldn't affect the track either.

 

THis past year, I brought up all info and rules about PWD at a pack meeting 3 months ahead of time. WE set up 2 workshops with the track and a final test run day a week before the race. WE told everybody to stick to the rules if they wanted to race. Period!

 

At all 3 events, I had officail rules displayed.

 

On race day, we enforced those rules. NO exceptions!

 

One final thing though...the boys are not so into the miniscule details and they aren't nearly as nit picky as any parent.

 

I saw scouts whose cars would get shaking side to side and cause a wreck. The parents were beside themselves getting all upset. The scouts were all "Ooohing" and " Ahhing" and exclaiming how cool the wreck was. The bigger the wreck, the bigger the bragging rights.

 

Oh yeah, just before the race, I stood up and told everybody that the PWD rface is a pack event designed to help the boys be creative. It is for boys to get together and have fun. The point is to have a great time...winning isn't the goal, just a bonus.

 

But most importantly, it's about the boys, not the parents so mom and dad needed to keep their own egos in check.

 

THis year, alot of parents and scouts said they had a better time at PWD.