A Simpler, Kinder, Gentler Pinewood Derby

[bbender 21]

From ideas like those offered in this thread, when we did our "after action" planning after our open District Derby a year ago, I put out this option: a district derby that would a pure free for all fun day of racing just line up and race against your buddies until the wheels fall off.

 

(for the trophy hunters, I suggested maybe we could do that "every other year").

 

Sadly, that didn't get a groundswell of support, though we did add a completely extra "just for fun" track on which we had completely open line up and race against your buddies until the wheels fall off racing, which was a hit. Photos from the event are attached; the fun track is the silver one.

 

As to the timed races and check in rules and such, we follow the concept of putting the rules out there front and center from the beginning, so that the more likely response of leaders and parents isn't that "you never told us" but "would you quit sending us emails that link us to the rules! We get it!".

 

Another thing we do that cuts down on parental disagreement is that we have Boy Scouts do the check in inspections. We find that Parents are much less likely to argue with boys. And the Scouts do a good job. Scoutmaster advisors just step in if a parent gets out of line, which didn't happen this year to my knowledge in any of the 280 check ins (200 plus for Pack Derbies and another 80 or so for the open District Derby -- we allocate times over Friday night and Saturday for Packs to have their own derbies, since our Pack has the only tracks in the District, making the event into a circus-like Derby Daze).

 

Echoing the concept of 5years above about fundraising to buy a new track, we also post a sign at Check In that says: "Everyone Working at Today's Race is a Volunteer / If you Disagree with a Decision Made, Be Ready to Step Up and Take the Place of that Volunteer" (idea courtesy of the SuperTimer folks, where we bought our tracks). I don't know how much that tempered disputes, but those at the front check in sure liked seeing those signs!

 

Another idea that I want to deploy next year is a concept of Team Awards, so that the fastest car doesn't mean much, as it is the fastest average time for a Den or Pack that gets your Den or Pack a pennant or other award. Again, courtesy of the SuperTimer guys (whose computers can generate these results quickly), the concept should then cause the gung-ho dads to share their ideas with the others in the Den or Pack, so that they have an incentive to share their ideas with the whole group if they want to win.

 

As to other awards and such,

-- every attendee gets a Patch with button loop that they can put on right away,

-- we do a "DMV" so they can get Drivers Licenses,

-- each Pack decides on their own awards for their Pack Derby times (some do trophies, others a hearty handshake, others pick out of a grab bag of donated baubles and geegaws that tend to accumulate over time),

-- and we have roving Design Judges who issue Certificates suitable for framing that highlight the stunning attribute of each car, while blissfully ignoring whether they actually used a concept like "best use of the color red" earlier in the day!

 

One year we had a group of parents who made little ribbons with plastic medals, so that each 1, 2, 3 winner after a heat got a gold, silver or bronze medal, and in later races, a gold, silver or bronze sticker added to it.

 

Ideas we hope to deploy next year include:

-- an additional screen for "sideline interviews" with racers,

-- using the courtyard field just outside the gym as a multi-Troop campsite so that kids can go see what Boy Scouts do (and Boy Scouts can show them around the campsites and lead them in games and such),

-- and like several have noted, we'll likely also have a leader race before the District Derby event.

 

But I'd still like to have a "just fun racing" day!

 

Bert Bender

Pack and District Trainer

South Fulton District, Atlanta Area Council

Derby Circus Master

Photos at http://pack631.smugmug.com/Other/2011-Pinewood-Derby-Daze/15826387_mnFwE#1187415198_LPfHf

 

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Excellent ideas there, bbender! And some of your ideas address the concerns I have below:

 

 

Unfortunately, rules are often a frail reed to raise against parents motivated by Ego. And using Authority to enforce rules with parents may end badly.

 

My personal bias is to de emphasize the competetive element somewhat so that parents aren't as likely to get emotionally over involved.

 

 

Unfortunately, this problem seems particularly acute with the Pinewood Derby.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[drmbear 10]

A lot of what I'm seeing here is the idea that "competition" is bad, "winners and losers" is bad, and that the pinewood derby should be turned into a non-competitive event. I'm all for non-competitive games and activities - heck, I even have whole books and resources filled with non-competitive games and activities to use as a resource. And if the pinewood derby was set up to be something for a mixed group of girls and boys, then I'd be all over the idea of looking for ways to make it less about the competition.

 

How many of you have read Deborah Tannen's book "You Just Don't Understand," talking about differences in how men and women communicate, and actually about how we develop in our lives as boys and girls? Cub Scouts is an organization for boys, and it is important that as we manage this program we are aware of both what they NEED and what their natural tendencies will push them to do. Tannen writes in an article:

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"For women, as for girls, intimacy is the fabric of relationships, and talk is the thread from which it is woven. Little girls create and maintain friendships by exchanging secrets; similarly, women regard conversation as the cornerstone of friendship. So a woman expects her husband to be a new and improved version of a best friend. What is important is not the individual subjects that are discussed but the sense of closeness, of a life shared, that emerges when people tell their thoughts, feelings, and impressions.

 

Bonds between boys can be as intense as girls', but they are based less on talking, more on doing things together. Since they don't assume talk is the cement that binds a relationship, men don't know what kind of talk women want, and they don't miss it when it isn't there.

 

Boys' groups are larger, more inclusive, and more hierarchical, so boys must struggle to avoid the subordinate position in the group. This may play a role in women's complaints that men don't listen to them. Some men really don't like to listen, because being the listener makes them feel one-down, like a child listening to adults or an employee to a boss."

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My point is that it is a natural tendency for boys to go through a hierachical "competition" of sorts to seek position - why make it a bad thing? Isn't a core element of Scouting citizenship training? Our democratic process is all about competition, and there are winners and losers. The pinewood derby is a setting we can control, with good sportsmanship and fairness, to show that even when there are winners and losers, we all win in the fun we had in building the cars and competing. Isn't that the same (or should be) in our elections, that our citizens get to chose who we are governed by, and although the competition is fierce, once it is over and the people have spoken, good sportsmanship should take over.

 

I'm not sure I explained myself very well, but I think they have it right to let the pinewood derby be a competition, with winners (though I usually make sure there are lots of winners for different things). It is appropriate for boys this age, and understandable, for them to have real competition. Through holding workshops and things beforehand, it is easy to give the boys a fair shake. Rules are also important, so keep craziness in the unlimited, no-rules division, for those wanting to push barriers. In the end, I just don't think "kinder, gentler" is in the best interest of the boys for the competition, so long as we remain focused on good sportsmanship in our response to it all.

 

A good examlple of what we don't want is a thing I experienced in Little League Baseball, with mothers fistfighting in the parking lot, parents cursing at their kids during a game to where the kid curled up crying out on the field, and yelling and screaming at coaches when their kids don't get to play all the time. Competition is great for boys - in line with how they deal with things. Good sportsmanship and seeking ways to strengthen your position, to be better next time, drive the "character connections" we really want to make. We should understand by now that although socialism sounds good on paper (kinder, gentler), it doesn't build the society, the kind of men we want to help build, that we really want.

 

I hope this makes at least some sense!!

 

 

[Eagle007 10]

I'm all for good, clean competition. There are winners and losers. But there is no place for pitching a fit and arguing by the parents. If I want to see all of that kind of drama, I'll go watch a little league baseball game or youth soccer game where the parents curse the coaches out because little Johnnie didn't get to play enough.

 

If the scouts, scouters and parents have been made aware of the rules and the consequences of violating the same, then they should have absolutely no problem being made to leave in the event of a temper tantrum or other situation.

 

Competition is great. But isn't there one hobby, sport or event that can be competed in where the kids have fun without the undue drama? We aren't raising little combative cavemen even if the parents act the part.

[momof2cubs 10]

I am ALL about competition and establishing winners and losers. It's one of my pet peeves these days that we seem to have this "thing" (for lack of a better word) where we absolutely must without a shadow of a doubt Make. Every. Child. SPECIAL!!!

 

I hate that!!!!! We have dumbed down everything in order not to make anyone "feel bad" about not getting something, or not achieving a goal, or not a winning a race, or whatever.

 

So yeah, I am 100% perfectly ok with the PWD remaining competitive. My problem comes when adults obviously build the cars. And not only do they OBVIOUSLY build the cars, but they cheat while building them. Yes it happens. All The Time.

 

And there doesn't seem to be a damn thing we can do to stop it.

[Horizon 97]

We pay a guy to run our derby. He shows up and runs the entire event, and it has 3 tracks:

 

1) Standard speed track with electronic timers, and every car races 3 times on different lanes and the middle time is recorded.

 

2) A shuffleboard type track where the scout pushes their car and gets more points if they stop in the middle.

 

3) A jump track, where most cars lose a wheel or 3 - distance is the prime measurement.

 

Tracks 2 & 3 help other Scouts catch up in the "best of show" rankings. Awards are given for speed, for distance, for preciseness, for best SCOUT decorated car, for coolest car, etc. The event takes too long, but it is broken into enough brackets along with a drawing for random prizes that everyone tends to get something.

 

On the competition side - I hate that we have competition like this in Scouting. Cub Scouts is about Do Your Best, NOT Who Is Best. For rankings, I have my son in Soccer and Swimming (his Eagle brother is in Soccer and Lacrosse). Music has first chair. Class rankings with top percentages are published and announced. Scouting is the one place where a boy could feel good about doing His Best without being compared to others. When I coach sports, I fight to win the tourney at the expense of other teams. When I lead Scouts, I try to find the victory for every youth.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Hi Mom!

 

 

(Wow, it's been a long time since I said THAT!)

 

 

>

 

And that's my other point. Sharpen up the competition too much and you get adult egos involved, and as you say there isn't a lot you can do about that.

 

Enforce "the rules" too much and you will find adults who will be unhappy to the point of quitting, or be loud and noisy as they pursue their grievances. Cub Scouting can't work with that kind of loud, bitter complaining by adults.

 

 

So my bias is to dull the competition somewhat so both boys and adults can have a good time. For those who want sharp competition, I'd point families to our district Pinewood Derby where you can find all the competition you are likely to want.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Hi Mom!

 

 

(Wow, it's been a long time since I said THAT!)

 

 

>

 

And that's my other point. Sharpen up the competition too much and you get adult egos involved, and as you say there isn't a lot you can do about that.

 

Enforce "the rules" too much and you will find adults who will be unhappy to the point of quitting, or be loud and noisy as they pursue their grievances. Cub Scouting can't work with that kind of loud, bitter complaining by adults.

 

 

So my bias is to dull the competition somewhat so both boys and adults can have a good time. For those who want sharp competition, I'd point families to our district Pinewood Derby where you can find all the competition you are likely to want.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[momof2cubs 10]

SP: ok, point taken.

 

As an explanation of why the whole thing chafes the hell out of me I'll give you a brief history of my last two years as a PWD parent. Last year I had a tiger and a bear. My kids were all about having a cool looking car (as opposed to a fast car) and didn't do ANY of the things my husband suggested to them would give them a faster car and a better chance at doing better. All they wanted was to cut, sand for a little bit, and paint and decorate the hell out of the cars. Dad and I stayed out of it. So naturally their cars sucked come race time. And they both came home crying like babies. We gave them both a little lesson on hard work and perseverance to achieve results, blah blah blah (you know the speech) and they both VOWED to do better next year.

 

Come this year, they bought the book (with their own pooled money), they read the book, and they spent days and several evenings doing everything they could. Dad did ONLY what they asked help with (i.e. could you help me graphite daddy please?) and they were very proud. So naturally they did much, much better this year. They made it to the finals, but did not win (5th and 11th place out of 80 cars which I thought was pretty great). They felt much better, but I did not. Why you ask? because the winning cars (1st and 2nd place) were cars obviously built by dads. the 1st place car consistently raced 3 to 10 mph faster than the nearest. You tell me they didn't cheat?

 

Or yes, I am sounding like sour grapes.

 

Your call.

 

But I am still happy that the competition taught my sons to work harder for what they want, no matter how old they are.

[Scoutfish 16]

But starting a conflict with parents who are probably convinced they are doing the right thing, and perhaps are having a good experience doing it just doesn't seem worthwhile.

 

You don't have to walk up and punch them in the face, just tell them that the best way to learn is experience. And the only way to get experience is to do it, not have mom and dad do it.

 

Besides, the conflict is the parent taking the oppertunity away from the kid. The second conflict is the parent taking it upon themselves to change what was going on with the scouts in the first place.

 

 

 

I try to make a point of my expectations, but perhaps people just don't get the word, think their way is the right way or whatever.

 

Yeah, we tell parents at pack meetings, at den meetings, send out e-mails , etc.. But somebody always just shows up and says: "Nobody ever said anything to me about...".

 

During the event or activity itselfis when we especialy stand up and tellparents what we said before. We NEVE stand down , because as soonas we do, we send the message to the parents that they can ignore us anytime they want. And we are not going to let that happen. We will not stand by and watch one parents ruin something for everybody else out of fear of upsetting that one parent!

 

It's a disappointment to me, and perhaps some Cub Scouts lose out on the experience at that moment. On the bright side, I'm avoiding the drama of a newspaper story "Cubmaster Wrestles Parent Over Spatula At Cub Scout Campout!"

 

Yeah,it is a dissapointment, but let it continue and keep letting these hings slide and you garrantee that ever cub wil lose out every time.

 

As for the newspapers..let that parent go and blab all they want.If that parent is the kind to do that, they have done it before...repeatedly. And everybody also recognizes that kinfd of parent too. Besides, all you have to say is that an untrained, non adult leader tried to hijack the scout activity without any authorization or clearance and the whole storuy will backfire on them!

 

 

But if you stop doing things for the boys then what point is there?

[Scoutfish 16]

Again, I'm not saying that you beat up a parent or cuss them out, but you can say, and say it authoritively, that this is an activity for the boys. Tell them that if the parents are going to flip the pancakes instead of letting the boys learn...you could have just assigned the parents to cook for the boys and been done with it.

[desertrat77 1144]

Exactly!

 

Just like a football game.

 

League publishes the rules.

 

Players and coaches know the rules ahead of time.

 

Violators get penalized.

 

The donkeys that can't/won't abide by the rules are sent to the showers.

 

Then the fans and players can enjoy a spirited game!

[SeattlePioneer 144]

As I think about this issue of dealing with problem parents, I realize that I have to be cautious myself about getting in a conflict situation. I could be the one making a fool out of myself over a trivial issue.

 

You might have seen some of my perfomances with Kudu on this forum, for example!

 

I'm not necessarily a tactful person. Parents flipping pancakes might not be the best situation, but the risk is that I might make things a lot worse if I wind up dealing with a parent who resents my intervention and wants to resist it.

[Scoutfish 16]

Then he will keep doing it and doing it.

 

So at what point or what activity do you finally tell him to stand down and how will he react after having gotten his way every other time he has tried.

 

As Deputy Barney Fife used to say: "Andy, we need to nip it in the bud!"

 

[desertrat77 1144]

SP, I understand but just a thought: isn't there another scouter that can serve as "sergeant at arms" while you handle the strategic level stuff?(This message has been edited by desertrat77)