Pinewood Derby Car question

[saschuster 10]

I was given a website to use to post rules for our scouts to follow to use their car. I guess it is rules they have vaguly followed in the past. Of course, after I did that, I have several of our dads in my office last night screaming about the wheels and the rule about the wheels.

 

I know NOTHING about building this car or the rules which is why I sent what the pack has always followed. So the rule they are having problems with is...

 

Wheelbase : The wheelbase (length between the wheels front-to-back) may NOT be changed; it must be the same as the official kit. Existing wheel slots MUST be used. Either end can be used as the front. Wheels/Axles:The wheels & axles furnished in the kit MUST be used. No washers, bushings, bearings, or springs are allowed. Wheels & axles may be sanded to remove burrs, and may be polished, waxed, etc. as desired as long as the SHAPE is

NOT changed. Reductions in wheel width or diameter are NOT allowed.

 

I guess the dads making their sons cars have moved the wheels closer together and now they are screaming that it should be legal. I looked at several other packs in our area that has the same set of rules posted on their website. I have no idea of moving the wheels creates and advantage or not. I do know, the dad fussing the loudest, has two scouts and he does all of the work on the cars himself, the boys told us that, and he has had both boys win first and second place every year they have raced.

 

Can anyone help me with this? Is this a rule we should change? Does moving the wheels create an advantage?

 

We have a committee meeting tomorrow night so I am going to let everyone hash it out then, I just wanted to get opinions from the outside from everyone who knows about building these things.

[83Eagle 11]

Of course, after I did that, I have several of our dads in my office last night screaming about the wheels and the rule about the wheels.

 

Well, there are all kinds of problems about that, but that is another issue altogether!

 

To the point at hand, the rule you specify is standard operating procedure. It's not specifically stated in the little sheet that comes in the box, but the sheet in the box implies to use the existing axle slots by giving redressing instructions.

 

If the pack has allowed otherwise in the past, or not enforced this in the past, you're going to have to make a decision about whether to enforce it now. How long before the derby were the rules released?

 

If you stick with the rules that were issued, you could always have a just for fun derby afterward, or a best of show judging.

[Rockford8070 10]

One thing I've noticed is that the first time you come out with a new rule you are going to get flak for it. Stick to your guns though and next year it won't be as much of an issue. Heck, before long it'll just become "the way things are done around here."

[UCEagle72 10]

As I served as a CM in the old Detroit Area Council - and had a pack composed largely of cubs whose dads worked at the GM Tech Center -- you have no idea on how crazy the competition can get between those dads ...

 

Enjoy ... and stick to your guns!

 

[saschuster 10]

I am very good at holding my ground if I say something and have no problem facing off with the dads so I am ready for it. I just want to make sure that by moving the wheels from where they are supposed to be, closer together or further apart is going to give that car the advantage over the others.

 

Again, another thing that seems so petty to me but when it's the same boys winning every year and now because of this rule that several other packs in our area also follow, the dads are flipping out, makes me wonder??

[sbemis1 14]

If I recall correctly the rules are both printed on the box and enclosed.

I did have to DQ one car the first year I was involved. I said it could race but not win any prizes (raceview software allowed this). The car didn't do well enough to matter. Looked reeeeaaaaallly professional though.

[83Eagle 11]

Well actually, the physics of the pinewood derby tells you that a longer wheelbase leads to a faster car, so I don't know why they're moving them closer together.

 

More likely their speed advantage is coming from something else illegal they are doing, like lathing the wheels down to a paper-thin level.

 

The bottom line from a "rules" standpoint is that the little sheet that comes in the box doesn't prohibit moving the wheels, but it does explicitly give directions for how to dress and use the existing axle slots so I think it's pretty clear.

[ScoutNut 147]

There are no "official" National rules. There are directions in the boxes. The Packs, and Districts, are free to make any local rules they want.

 

If your District holds a Pinewood Derby I would suggest your Pack uses the same rules or their winners will not be allowed to compete at the District race.

 

It does not matter if changing the wheels really gives one an advantage or not. That is not the point. Following the rules, and good sportsmanship, is the point. If these are the rules the Pack has always posted then they should not have come as a surprise to anyone.

 

You said the rules were just posted. When did the boys get their kits? When is the race? If the race is this weekend, and the rules were just posted, there is a good chance that most of the cars have already been built. A bit late to be handing out rules on building the car, even if they are "old" rules.

 

You also stated that in the past the rules were only "vaguely" followed. That could be another reason for the complaints. They want to see if these are real rules or if they are more for show only.

 

It is no big deal to take out the axles and move the wheels back to where they should be. Of course it becomes a bigger deal if they are solid axles, and not the nails supplied in the kit. It also becomes a bigger deal if they have done other things to the car and now can't move the wheels back.

 

I suggest the Pack stand behind it's posted rules. Enforce them, and you will not have a problem (or as big of one) next year. This means that cars must be closely inspected, and weighed, and that you, and the Race Chair, have no problem with telling families that a car can race, but not win.

 

[gcnphkr 11]

For a bit of the counter view. I've long been opposed to any rule that is not included in the kit.

 

The only modification not covered in the kit rules that gives a car an unfair advantage is when dad goes out and purchases a set of professionally matched and machined wheels. If it is a real concern then eliminate the wheel issue entirely by adding a single rule that wheels will be issued at race time.

 

The modern axles need very little work and most people doing it at home end up making them worse.

 

I personally think that a scout experimenting with wheelbase, weight distribution and even modifying wheels is a good thing. I do tell the boys in the troop (yes we still race on occasion) that if they show up with a set of machined wheels they need to bring a picture of them using the lathe with which they did the modification.

 

If the council or district uses special rules then you should use the same ones. That way the cubs do not risk being DQ at a district or council event.

 

Finally, if the pack has been using these rules then tell the complainers to pound sand.(This message has been edited by jet526)

[packsaddle 753]

Yes, this is one of the 'down sides' to PWD. And I agree with the sentiments most of the posters have communicated so far...stick by your guns if those are 'the rules'.

This district used those rules and for the few years that I was the person who weighed in PWD cars for the district derby, I applied them without exception. Yes, there were some fathers whose machine shops had custom-fabricated mirror-finish-smooth, perfect axles, with hidden lubricant sources, etc. They had always won in the pack competition and they were disqualified if they violated the district rules. It takes a thick skin to withstand their disappointment but the rules level the playing field a bit and I also advocate sticking with them.

 

I have heard of districts where the 'cheating' was so rampant that at weigh-in ALL the cars were practically drenched in silicone lube so that everyone had the same 'advantage'.

I am proud to say that most of the boys in the pack that I served never saw this kind of thing, except those who had placed in the pack derby. I think that the best that one of the boys from this pack ever did was place second overall at the district and I'm fairly certain his father had done most of that work...at least it conformed to the specs stated in 'the rules'.

I agree that shortening the wheel base should produce no advantage. Nevertheless, that is out of spec.

One problem I did notice for several years was that the slots in the kits (this pack gave the kits to all the boys in the fall so all of them had the same raw materials) were often 'out of square' and the wheels would not track 'true' if mounted in the original slots. In those cases we sent the kits back and exchanged them for ones that had proper slots.

[SctDad 10]

"I do know, the dad fussing the loudest, has two scouts and he does all of the work on the cars himself, the boys told us that, and he has had both boys win first and second place every year they have raced."

 

This guy would not be allowed to race in my pack.

 

First off you do not come to me screaming about the rules. The rules are there to keep things fair FOR THE BOYS.

 

Second, I am grown. Not even my mama screams at me. (ever wonder why CM's quit???)

 

If these boys have told you that they do not build the cars and that their dad does all the work, ask them if they feel right in accepting trophies and awards, for someone elses work. Does that seem fair to the boy who has a single mother, no father figure, and she tries, but has no woodworking skills and he brings a rough cut block of wood in.

 

Does you district have a race. Follow those rules.

 

If there is still a problem, take it to the committee and let them tell this guy, the PWD is for the boys.

 

If he really wants tell him to organize an open class, maybe that will support his ego.

 

Bottom line, it is for the boys, and I will not put up with parents screaming at me. Expecially in my office.

[Scoutfish 16]

TRIPLE BACKFLIP , DOUBLE AXEL AMEN to what SctDad said!

 

I'd tell "screaming dad" that :" These are the rules to be in the event that is put on for the scouts. You want to be in the event...then you follow the rules! PERIOD!'

 

Our pack uses the rule used by the district. What's the point otherwise?

 

You must use the tires that came in the box.

You must use the nails in the box

If you lose a nail or trire, you can only use new ones bought from the scout shop.

 

You must use the original axle slots

If they are out of square, you can straighten them.

 

7" max length

2 3/4 max width

5oz max weight.

[drmbear 10]

I've seen pictures of all the cars with modified wheel locations, lengthening the wheel base, shaping the wheels, etc. Even on the national level, these cars compete in an Open Division, a kinda no rules kind of competition. To compete with all the boys in the pack, we use the same rules that are required to compete at the district or council level. No moving axle locations, parts from the box, only wheel modification removing seams or burrs, 5oz., etc. That's the way it should be, something any of the boys in the pack can do, puts everyone on the same playing field. Of course run an open division - it is where all the leaders, parents, siblings, etc. compete, and the no rules thing applies. We had one guy that had built a bus weighing about 25oz last year - it was so heavy the nails wouldn't stay in the block and it drug on the center rail all the way down. I built mine legal weight, and nearly beat the cubmaster who had a car twice as heavy as mine. And I didn't even do that much except to work the axles.

[perdidochas 658]

From what I've read, wheels farther apart are ideal.

[saschuster 10]

Thanks everyone. After three days of dads having temper tantrums worse than their scouts made a decision. I gave out the cars and a week later sent the rules not even thiking these dads would be all over the cars as quick as they were! So, my fault for that and now i know to have them paper rules with the cars next year! After talking with many other people who have built many cars and one who has run our district race I found it's not fair to move the wheels, it does make the car faster and it's not allowed at district. Because I didn't get the rules out right then, I am letting the boys race but they will race against the other "modified cars" and they will have a 1st second and third place trophy but we will not allow them to race in the final pack race. We had a meeting last night, the committee members and parents that came took a vote and everyone was notified this morning. Now, it will be interesting to see how many mad fathers I have about this but I would rather have them mad and the boys happy!