ypt question

[dennis99ss 10]

This issue is something that came up on a webelos campout this weekend. I had three adults, and my son was the ill one, so I did not run into a ypt or 2 deep issue in leaving the campout to run him home, but it did raise an issue that I have been thinking about since. So, I have come up with a scenario, that I can see coming up.

 

A camp outing with the minimum 2 deep leadership, but, just 2 adults present.

 

One scout becomes ill and needs to leave the camp site, either to go to a doctor or to go home, and the adult leadership is not the ill scouts parent.

 

so, do you leave one adult with the camp, and one takes the ill scout.

 

or, do the two adults go with the ill scout, and leave the boys unattended.

 

My gut reaction would be to have one adult stay with the camp, where he will at least have the ability to be with multiple scouts, and not be one on one. Then, discuss the situation with the parents of the ill scout, advise what is going on, and take another scout with you, so there is not one adult and one scout together. If you are meeting the parents on the road for a hand off, or taking the boy all the way home, bring 2 scouts, so the return trip is not one on one.

 

of course, if you have only 4 boys, the issue becomes more difficult as you could run into a situation where you would have one adult and one scout.

 

Any thoughts, or experiences on how the issue has been handled.

[NealOnWheels 73]

Just use some common sense.

[moosetracker 132]

My understanding of two deep leadership is that "yes" preferably two adults, but not always, if not then it is more like no one-on-one.. Take car trips, normally one adult driver with more then one youth scout. If you have to drive a scout home the Adult leader, his son and the scout that is not his son, will do.. In a troop with merit badges it may be the MBC with one scout and a parent.. or the MBC with two or more scouts..

 

Therefore in this situation, I would ask that 2 other scouts (or your son) go with you to drive the 1 scout home or to the hospital.. You need 2 others (or your son), because once at the hospital or once delivered to the house, you may be driving back with out the sick scout and need the two scouts there so there still is no one on one (unless your son)..

 

If this arragement means the Adult leader left back at the campsite is with less then two scouts, (if at a camporee or summer camp, you can make arragements with another troop camping nearby).. If not, then everybody takes a ride together..

 

At least that is how I see it.

[acco40 95]

Two-deep leadership is not required for everything in Scouts. For example, one may hold a den meeting with just the den leader (adult) and Cub Scouts (youth) present.

 

However, for trips and outings, two-deep leadership is required. So, if a Scout needs to be taken out, for whatever reason, the trip or outing comes to an end if two-deep leadership cannot be maintained.

 

Additionally, don't have a one-on-one adult to scout during transportation of the ill scout to the home or medical facility.

 

That's one reason that I, as a unit leader, required a minimum of three adults for an outing. On the rare occasions, I would allow only two adults, myself included, if parents understood that they needed to be "on call" to pick up their son(s) due to illness, emergencies, behavior, etc.

[Eagle92 110]

Something similar happened to a friend of mine, except this was a Venturing crew, and it was the female assoc. adv. who got injured.

 

Long story short, the entire crew went to emergency room as it was a coed crew with 2 leaders.

 

When I worked summer camp back in the day, I had taken youth staffers to the hospital with the CD's permission (actually he told me to do it) with no other scout and no other adult. I had them in the backseat while I was in the front. NEVER AGAIN! (caps for emph.) for the following reasons.

 

1) YP does not want one on one contact. Yes YP was in effect back then, and if memory serves emergency situations did allow exceptions, i.e. rushing to the the hospital b/c your staffer was in danger of going into shock, did allow for exceptions. But in today's litigious society I would want at a minimum another scout with me.

 

2) The staffer went into shock in my car. Would have been nice to have another person to help treat him while I kept driving. While I could keep him warm with the car's heater going full blast, (sarcasm on) lots of fun in the summer with 100 degree heat and 90+% humidity (sarcasm off), it would have been a lot better if someone else could do first aid properly on him.

[FScouter 24]

As was said, use common sense. The "Rule" is stated very clearly in the Guide to Safe Scouting - two adults on trips and outings. There are no additional rules for 101 what-if scenarios.

No rule that says two adults in every vehicle.

No rule that says kids must tag along to the hospital.

No rule that says the campout must end.

No rule that says you need another adult if one has to go to the toilet.

No rule that "2-deep" must be maintained every hour, minute, or second.

 

Plan the outing with two adults, as required, and if something comes up use common sense. Simple.

 

[kbandit 10]

If a scout is ill a phone call needs to be made to his parent to come and get him. We always get 2 phone numbers from each scout. If a scout needs Dr/hospital I think I would let EMS transport/ give him care if it is that serious.

 

Commom Sense

[acco40 95]

FScouter, a defense of "I used common sense" won't fly if one adult is left with the troop because the only other adult took a Scout home.

 

Common sense states to not rely on only two adults. If one does, if one adult has to leave, the outing should come to an end.

[Eagle92 110]

K,

Sometimes you are in a situation where it is faster to drive yourself to the hospital than to wait for the ambulance. Also sometimes something doesn't initially appear serious, and then turns so.

 

Which is why I want a 2nd person in the car.

 

 

[Oak Tree 15]

a defense of "I used common sense" won't fly if one adult is left with the troop because the only other adult took a Scout home.

 

A defense against what?

 

Using common sense and good judgment is a fine plan. Sure, plan ahead. Bring three adults if possible. Take an extra Scout or two with you to the ER.

 

There are lots of dependencies here. What is the car situation? How far away from home are you? How long would it take for the second adult to get back to camp? Do you have cell phone coverage?

 

You might even consider having both adults go to the hospital, depending on the Scouts you're leaving behind and what type of access to resources they have (phones, rangers, cars, etc).

[Twocubdad 665]

In my book, dealing with an actual situation trumps precautions for a hypthetical one. If a scouts is seriously ill enough to warrant a trip to the hospital, getting him help trumps the compliance with a policy.

 

Of course everything depends on the exact circumstances. Above, I'm assuming this is somewhat of an emergency situation. If the kid is just sick and we're taking him home, that's different. We maintain two-deep and his parents' come pick him up. Depending on the circumstance back in camp, it may be prudent to load everyone up and all go the the hospital.

 

It all depends on the specifics, but I'm going to do do what's in the best interest of the Scouts.

[ScouterAdam 11]

Two Adults is Two Adults is Two Adults. If you cannot maintain that due to an emergency. Outing is over and you need to attend to the sick/injured Scout.

 

In your example of your son being sick and needing to go home. That's a tad different. He is your son, you can go with him. There were two other adults. Your covered.

 

To those who say two deep leadership is perferable & not required...It's the BSA RULE. Can you say LAWSUIT?

All it takes is one boy to say something to the parents and the parents call the Council.

 

Den Meetings: Keep other parents onsite. Ask them to help with the project. They do not need to be YPT trained, but your covered. Also, why not get the whole Pack YPT trained. Simple online training.

 

Also, GSS states that in an emergency YPT takes a back seat. But, an emergency really needs to be defined.

 

Meaning: if a Scout break their arm and there are two Adult Leaders with two cars. Adult drives boy to hospital. Another Scouts comes along to help injured Scout. Other Adult Leader packs up the rest of the Scouts and heads home. That is the best solution in that case. During that time calls are being made to Cubmaster/Committee Chair informing them of emergency. Your covered because you took action and DID YOUR BEST.

 

 

The health and safety of the Scouts is on the Scouter. Just means that taking BALOO, OWLS, ITOLS and other training is needed.

 

 

[FScouter 24]

Opinions will vary, and different folks will adopt different practices. Personally, I would never drag a bunch of kids out of camp to a hospital emergency room.

 

There is no BSA rule or requirement that an outing must end if an adult has to leave. What is there to be afraid of exactly? I can see curtailing a swimming or rock-climbing activity perhaps. End it if you like, but it is not "required".

 

Den meetings and troop meeting do not require two adults to be "covered". An assistant is always good, help is helpful, but there is no requirement.

[Eagle92 110]

ScouterAdam does have a point in that all it takes is an accusation and the scouter is gone. The key is no one on one contact. Two deep leadership is to provide oversite, prevent abuse, and just in case of an emergency, one adult with multiple scouts can stay behind, and one adult, and I want another scout with him, could go to the emergency room.

 

Unfortunately I have seen an accusation from a known liar, he lied about me and 2 other adults trying to get out of trouble, get a dedicated leader thrown out of scouting, b/c that leader caught him out after hours while the leader was coming back from the showers. Unfortunately the leader was alone coming back from the showers, and it was a "youth said/adult said" situation.

 

Venturing is a little different in that it is co ed. So you really need both a female and a male leader present. In my friends' situation with the female leader having to go to the ER, taking the entire crew is the only option IMHO.

[clemlaw 55]

>>>>Just use some common sense