Lisabob 13 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 The only places where I have seen Tigers work as it is intended, are where the pack has an established Tiger den leader do the job. (rather than expecting parents who are brand new to scouting and still sort of new to parenting and adult community involvement - heck the kid is only 6 or 7 in first grade and many of their parents are still in their early/mid 20s!) Link to post Share on other sites
MNBob 10 Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Lisabob: I understand your point but wouldn't that be an issue regardless of what rank started the program? In other words if Tigers didn't exist then the problem just migrates to the Wolf den with having brand new parents have to step in and lead (assuming no experiened leader is available). My concern with Lions is that it's just another year of Scouting and although I like the program I don't really see the need. As it is, the program is already repetitive. We have a running joke in our Pack about just how enjoyable it is to work on the food pyramid every year. *rolls eyes* I wonder if BSA sees so much competition with organized activities starting younger and younger that they feel it is necessary to join in. As a parent I'm personally rather tired of the over organization of our kids. Link to post Share on other sites
JerseyScout 10 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Unless I am very mistaken, Daisy Scouts are 1st grade, not kindergarten, so would be on level with Tiger Cubs. Lion Scout is a terrible idea, I also have the sneaking suspicion that they are created to increase enrollment numbers. If you don't have experience with working with groups of that age level of kids, most people are in for a rough ride. The same goes for Tigers. Sadly, I'm also starting to think more and more that Cub Scouts is a terrible idea. Half the kids I work to recruit into Boy Scouts reply, "Oh, I already know how that works. I was a Cub Scout and all we did was get yelled at and sell popcorn." I don't know what the numbers are, but massive numbers of kids drop out of Cub Scouts, never to even consider Boy Scouts ever again. In two years of heavy recruitment, I've managed to "rehabilitate" only one ex-Cub into Boy Scouts. The reason? He went on a trip with my troop as a first year WEBLOS just before dropping out of Cubs. WEBLOS was crap, but he managed to stay excited about being a Boy Scout for a year and half. Crossover numbers aren't great either, Arrow of Light seems to have become the end of the program for many, not a stepping stone to bigger and better things. Kids burn out. Parents burn out. Link to post Share on other sites
BklynEagle 10 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Not to get completely off-topic, but wasn't "Lions" already used by Cub Scouts, as some kind of pre-development-of-Webelo Webelo-rank-equivalent? (Edited for clarity)(This message has been edited by BklynEagle) Link to post Share on other sites
MNBob 10 Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 If I understand correctly, Lions existed before Webelos. Wolf->Bear->Lion. Lions went away and eventually Webelos was added.(This message has been edited by MNBob) Link to post Share on other sites
BklynEagle 10 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I thought it was something like that. Strikes me as kinda odd that Northern Star would resurrect the old name and then apply it to a level that is junior to its former position. Their program, though, so I guess it's their choice. Link to post Share on other sites
MNBob 10 Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 JerseyScout: I think that's painting with a broad brush. There are bad Pack programs just like there are bad Troop programs. And within a Pack there are good and bad dens just like I assume Troops may have good or bad patrols. For Cub Scouts it ultimately boils down to volunteer leadership -- you either have good ones or bad ones. I had 12 second year Webelos Scouts in my den this year. 11 are crossing over on March 7 (the 12th moved in January otherwise he probably would have as well). Of the 11 I think 8 of them will give Boy Scouts a fair chance while I can see 3 of them possibly dropping rather quickly. At the same time the Web I den behind us went from a high of around 10 Scouts to only 2 this year. I have no idea if those boys who left would consider Boy Scouts in the future but it probably won't be because of their Cub Scout experience. Link to post Share on other sites
Lisabob 13 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Somebody mentioned earlier how little many long-time boy scout leaders seem to know (as a group) about the current cub program. That has always been a pet peeve of mine, along with the fact that a lot of troops who are heavy on adult leaders do a lot of complaining about how poorly run local packs - who are desperate for adult leaders - happen to be. My solution: If you believe that the cubs in your area are not getting a good experience and you are affiliated with a troop, push your troop to provide den chiefs, make sure those den chiefs are well-prepared to be useful to den leaders, and take a hard look at your ASM and committee members. If you've got as many adults as boys active in the troop, see about asking some of those adults to consider offering their services to a local pack that needs help, instead. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Every pack is different. My pack's program have the Webelos graduate as soon as they turn 11 or have completed AOL, usually in Nov/December range. While Our Web IIs who have been in a long time crossed over in November, officially joining the troop in December. Those who joined this year will haev a cross over soon. AND some Webelos Is who meet the age requirements and/or earned AOL will also be crossing over soon. Ourt key is to let them work hard, play hard, and get them to the troop where the REAL Fun begins for them . Link to post Share on other sites
Snow_White 10 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 FWIW, I believe that the "Lions" name was resurrected by National, not Northern Star - Northern Star happens to be one of the councils participating in a pilot of the program. In our pack, I have seen Tiger dens that work really well, and some that didn't go so well. I hadn't thought about it until now, but it does seem that the common thread in the ones that worked well was a TDL with prior scouting experience. That being said, I'm not sure that I want my youngest to sign up for Tigers when the time comes. My Webelos son is really enjoying the activities that his den is doing, and starting to get excited about choosing a troop to cross over to. But when it comes to pack meetings, pocorn sales, PWD, B&G, his attitude is very been-there, done-that. (Yes, I know that there will still be popcorn sales in Boy Scouts...) When I was first exposed to Cub Scouts, it was 2 years working on Wolf/Bear ranks, and one year as Webelos. I'm starting to think that 4 1/2 years is just too long, let alone 5 1/2 years with Lions! Link to post Share on other sites
ScoutNut 147 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 >>"Unless I am very mistaken, Daisy Scouts are 1st grade, not kindergarten, so would be on level with Tiger Cubs." Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [sarcasm on] But doesn't BSA mean BABY SITTERS of AMERICA? [sarcasm off] Link to post Share on other sites
MNBob 10 Posted March 10, 2010 Author Share Posted March 10, 2010 Here is another example of questionable integration. Looking at the upcoming "Univerisity of Scouting" for our Council (http://training.nsbsa.org/uploadedFiles/file/UofS/UofS-Catalog-Spring2010.pdf) it still lists two different classes -- 903 Den Leader Specific Training and 909 Tiger Leader Specific Training. If Tiger is now the first official year of Cub Scouts then "Den Leader" training should apply to all three ranks -- Tiger, Wolf and Bear. Is this an issue with our Council being behind the times? I'm already trained as a DL and WDL. This fall I will become a leader for my youngest son who will be a Tiger. I have absolutely no plans to go to "Tiger Leader" training. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 MN, Don't know if the link aslo shows a WEBELOS DEN LEADER Specific Training as there is such a thing, and Webelos are still Cubs Scouts. The reason for 3 different den leader training session is b/c the three levels have different parts of the meeting, have things done differently, etc. For example, the TCDL talks about how to use the partners, and still has the Share, Discover Search elements form pre-CS Tiger Cubs. CSDL training focuses on the 7 elements of a meeting more, and WDL focuses on makign the transition form CS to BS. Now I have heard that the new online training will cover all aspects: Tigers, Wolves and Bears, and Webelos. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Ok had a chance to look at it during lunch. Please note that there is a Webelos Leader Specific course as well as the two you mentioned. Link to post Share on other sites
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