Can You Explain Why....

[KoreaScouter 13]

Bob;

 

Amen to your disclaimer to the casual "drop-in" who reads some of the doomsday stuff in here.

 

In a previous "life", I commanded a military training center. I was continuously perplexed and frustrated why, when my students (all military) returned to their home stations, the feedback rolled in about the overly tough schedule, the sadistic PT, the prison-like accomodations, the difficulty of the field exercise, blah, blah, blah. Ultimately, I realized that they earned zero "bragging rights" if the schedule was manageable, the PT reasonable, the accomodations comfortable, and so on. Only if it was near-Biblical hardship (or perceived as so by their buds) did they get the "props" for the experience.

 

Listen, I've seen the same syndrome among some Scouters. To get full "tough guy" credit and sympathy from your peers, you have to have some or ideally all of the following, whether you actually do or not:

 

- Disinterested CO

- Abusive DE

- Alcoholic unit commissioner

- Psychotic CC

- Condemned meeting place

- Lazy SPL

- All Scouts on behavior meds; at least half on probation

- No parents care

- All equipment broken or missing

- Fill in your own here ___________

 

I'd guess that with the very rare exception, things are mostly okay, we just tend to sensationalize to hold our audience.

 

KS

 

 

 

 

 

 

[yaworski 10]

"spend one's energy delivering a quality program instead of tinkering with the official uniform? "

 

What energy? One day, the boys say, "Can we get a red, white and blue neckerchief." One mom goes to the fabric store, buys the cloth and runs up a dozen or two neckerchiefs on her serger. Costs about $10 and takes an hour.

 

Consider this, if the Special Forces hadn't broken the uniform rules, they wouldn't be known as "The Green Berets" today. According to legend, they wore an unauthorized beret during a dog 'n pony show for JFK. He liked the look so it became regulation.

[evmori 11]

What is an unofficial neckerchief?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[yaworski 10]

"What is an unofficial neckerchief?"

 

The list would include the "checkered flag" neckerchiefs that I made for the boys going to the district Pinewood Derby and the "Stars and Stripes" neckerchiefs as well.

 

As an aside, I Boy Scout function to attend the other day but I couldn't find my official green with red stripe socks. I elected to wear my USMC issue OD socks. Alas, when I sat my trouser cuff rode up and exposed the top of my socks and they were spotted by the SPL.

 

The SPL charged over to me and informed me in no uncertain that my flagrant disregard for the uniform rules was undermining the entire program and that I needed to leave before my attitude infected the Scouts. :-)

[Venturer2002 10]

 

You know those blue, gold, and plaid neckerchiefs they make for cub scouts? Those are official. Well, some people have made custom neckerchiefs for their dens, these are "unofficial". As Yaworski stated the green beret evolved from similar non-conformity.

 

Uniform standards, advancement requirement/procedures, and safety regulations are certainly established for the benefit of us all.

 

No matter which part of these you change, you're willfully disobeying.

Picking and choosing which parts you adhere to is incorrect. Leading a great outdoor program, implementing safety regulations, and wearing a neckerchief that makes your den a team isn't.

 

The Chief Scout Executive is clearly imitating a military uniform with the way he's got his sleeves pressed in the 11th edition handbook. With this as an example, is it allright to do so as well?(This message has been edited by Venturer2002)

[Bob White 20]

Venturer 2002

You make some good points. I would like to correct you on a small item. Many leaders who own the Polyester wool blend uniform shirt choose to have it dry cleaned. The pressing style you noticed is a typical style used by cleaners an any uniform, whether military, law enforcement, fire fighters, and even scouting uniforms.

 

Bob White

[yaworski 10]

I don't know if creased sleeves is "military style." My dress shirts all come from the laundry with the sleeves creased and ironed flat. It's hard to do otherwise if you get heavy startch.

 

Now, my uniforms I have ironed with military creases (vertical creases on the front and back). Why? I like the look. I even have that to any of my shirts with two pockets, including my Pendleton wool shirts.

 

(This message has been edited by yaworski)

[ScoutParent 10]

# 1. On many topics Bob White has correctly referenced policies and regulations and on many he has incorrectly referenced policies and regulations. In far too many instances Bob White jumps to conclusions about the poster's character and administration of the "program" with very little information to base his opinions on. Bob White was offensive to me when I referred to the district finance committee in one post and he told me that the postman would have been just as helpful. A statement that suprised me since the people at the (council) scout office were directing me but I took it as true since Bob said it. Upon further research I found that actually it was the right committee to deal with the type of concerns I had. He has made several disparaging comments to people with just as little information as he had in the circumstance. In another thread where uniforms were being discussed, Bob again incorrectly stated facts and when corrected instead of accepting it gracefully and learning a little more himself, he made an excuse that the information was in the SPL book and he hadn't gotten that when the original post was made; looking in the boy scout handbook, I see the same information on that particular topic in there. Just accept it when you are wrong and learn, Bob, like you espouse that you want everyone else to. As all of us are human, there is room for all to improve and learn always. Sometimes it seems Bob's interpretations of the rules and regulations are slightly askew and I question his understanding of some of them.

 

# 2. Why I directly asked Bob a question when I became a forum member was because he seemed to thoroughly research the answers he gave and base them on policies and regulations he could quote. It seemed he had the information available to him that I was seeking and as the regulations are hard to find in one place on the internet, I was hoping he would have access to them.

[yaworski 10]

Note to self: Proofread!

 

I don't know if creased sleeves is "military style." My dress shirts all come from the laundry with the sleeves creased and ironed flat. It's hard to do otherwise if you get heavy startch.

 

Now, my uniforms I have ironed with military creases (vertical creases on the front and back). Why? I like the look. I even have that done to any of my shirts with two pockets, including my Pendleton wool shirts.

[Bob White 20]

ScoutParent,

I'm sorry you did'y care for me comparing the appropriatness of the district finance committe with the postman. The fact is that you asked for my recommendations, did not follow them and did not get the results you wanted. I'm soory things did not work out fir you but that is hardly my fault. The District finance committe deals with fundraising only. They have no authority within a unit's finance.

 

as you saud I give the location of the resourses where anyone can find the answers. Don't like the answers, don'y slay the messenger.

 

As far as uniforming I told you the truth. the new handbooks have new information that expands information from the Scout Handbook and the BS Leader Essentials Training. The books are NEW. They came out in my council after my original post. I admitted the information I shared changed and addressed the changes. I don't know what more you expect?

 

As far as # 2 you wanted an answer that didn't exist. You wanted to hear that the troop could not do what they wanted with the funds. That's not the case and you didn't like the answer. I can't make up rules just to please you.

 

Did your troop treat your son fairly? Absolutely not and I made that quite clear. Did the troop violate any BSA policies? Sorry No.

 

Did you follow my recommendations for a solution? No. Did you get the outcome you wanted? No.

 

ScoutParent you are angry at the wrong person.

 

Bob White

[ScoutParent 10]

Bob, first of all I am not angry at you at all; I was merely explaining what I felt was offensive about your responses. I referred to specific incidences when I felt you had been offensive one to me and one to another individual. These were not the only instances but rather the two that most easily came to mind. Since you felt the need to defend your positions at all cost I will rebut your answer: On page 13 Boy Scout Handbook Eleventh Edition copyright 1998 it states " For outdoor activities, Scouts may wear troop or camp T-Shirts with the Scout pants or shorts". The fact that it was also in the SPL Handbook which came out later was immaterial. It has been in the Boy Scout Handbook all along. Secondly, I did not attempt to stack the deck in favor of our position in any way whatsoever when seeking information about the rules, regulations or policies of the BSA concerning finances and I certainly did follow the suggestions you gave whether you choose to believe that or not. What made you decide that I hadn't is anyone's guess. That is all well and good but is not the topic that I was answering rather examples to exemplify why your style of posting on this forum may be offensive to some people. Does this mean that people do not value some of what you have to add? Certainly not. Does this mean that you are above reproach and always correct? Again, certainly not. When a person who leads or trains shows disdain towards those he professes to lead or train, something is lost. Since you seem dedicated to Scouts and to providing others with training maybe you could work on this part of your leadership skills a little.

 

 

[Double Eagle 128]

What is an "official" neckerchief? I've persued this on an occasion or two and was told by professionals that they either had to have "BSA" on it or the fleur di lis. Much the same as OA lodge flaps must have "WWW" or "OA" on it somewhere.

[red feather 10]

Neckeriefs. My old troop had one that was cotton with a silk-screened a buffalo (troop totem) with BSA and troop number on it. It set us aside from other troops (area custom) and made the scouts immedialtely known as to where they were from. My Eagle scarf is silk, embrodered, and a item of pride for me when I wear it to Eagle ceremonies. Unique. Pride in scouting is what we wish to engender is boys, a little variation does not diminish scouting but may keep them in. Common sense. Common sense. None of us wish to change scouting.

[Bob White 20]

Troops and boy scouts may wear whatever neckerchief they want, but the uniform rules for Cub Scouts say they must wear the neckerchief of rank.

 

The BSA does not expect everyone to agree with every rule. They do expect the volunteer leaders to follow the rules and to teach the scouts to follow the rules.

 

Bob white