DE Problems

[PACK15NISSAN 10]

We just recently had our Fall recruiting at our local elementary school. We are in a relatively small but growing town and have 2 elementaries (one that won't even let us in the doors, only pass out fliers to drivers during meet the teacher) and another elementary that we inherited in a town about 10-15 away because their pack folded last year.

 

We are good sized pack (the biggest in our district and probably close to the biggest in our council) and had about 50-60 parent/child combos show up. I did the timeline of a boy and gave the speech that with a pack this size we need leaders not just boys. We ended up with 45 signing up that night and a few more at our den meeting the next week. We recruited 2 leaders and are in the works of a few more. In total our pack is now around 110-120 boys, but the year is young and we will probably thin out a little.

 

My problem is with the DE, during this whole ordeal she seemed supportive on the outside but her actions show otherwise. She wanted to take the kids from the school in the next town who signed up and form a new pack even though they just folded last year. That area is very poor and even though they might have the boys they won't have the money to do what we do. I know that she needs to open a certain number of new units but IMHO that is just wrong to take them after they have joined our unit. It was kind of like, you do the work and I will take the credit which needless to say isn't building a good relationship with our pack.

 

Secondly, she made comments to other leaders about how she felt my timeline of a boy was inappropriate and not an effective way to recruit leaders. Shortly after she left, not even helping us with sign ups. Our pack is pretty much self-sufficient. We can handle sign ups just fine but we don't understand why she would come saying she was there to help and then just leave.

 

She said she had never seen anything like it before, referring to the numbers and how we did things. Perhaps it caught her off guard and she wasn't prepared and didn't know how to help or felt she wasn't needed. The other issue is her son is in our pack so she attends den meetings almost every week (sometimes she sends her husband).

 

How should this be handled?

 

Do we ignore it, mention it to her, let her boss know, we don't want to cause problems but as the DE she shouldn't be treating our pack so disrespectfully.

[John-in-KC 311]

One, and only one person should have a friendly cup of coffee with your District Chairman. That person is your Chartered Organization Representative.

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Frankly, imho, your Pack should be providing assistance and support to stand up a new Pack at the other elementary school.

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Frankly, imho, your Pack should have a recruiting booth at meet the teacher night. It can be in the parking lot if need be. On site presence of Scouts and Scouters in uniform, with Scouts having FUN, is the best recruiting tool for Cub Scouting there is. There is more than one way to get around no boy talks or "flyers only." IT'S CALLED BEING VISIBLE.

[John-in-KC 311]

OBTW, I don't expect DE's to help with sign-ups. Where was your Unit Commissioner? He/she should have been part of that.

 

ETA: Take that back. If two Packs are in one school, and they are not friendly to each other, then the DE should take recruiting away from the units and give it to District volunteers.

[shortridge 184]

The issue of respect aside, the decision of whether to start a new pack or join an existing pack is entirely up to the parents and Cubs. If the DE can convince some parents to start a new unit in their town, that's great. It would be more convenient for them to attend. If the parents and Cubs decide to stick with your pack - perhaps because you have a proven track record and they're new to the program - that's great, too.

 

A DE can't force anyone to do anything, or unilaterally "take kids and start a new pack."

[PACK15NISSAN 10]

John,

 

Our COR is a paper figure only, we only see maybe once or twice a year. The only time he steps in is when there is a problem with the scouts and the facility.

 

It is not our packs job to help another pack start up. I agree that if there are enough parents and boys to start a new pack that is closer for them then to do it. But for us to use our resources to help them do this, especially after they just flopped a few months ago is crazy.

 

As far as the recruiting booth, we are not allowed on school property at this particular elementary. We have scouts and scouters in uniform stand on the sidewalk and hand out fliers as people come in. It has all our recruiting information as well as telephone numbers if they have questions.

 

Our UC was present, he helped some but like I said we pretty much have everything under control. The only reason the DE was there was because she asked to be. She is relatively new and wanted to help (she is also a scout parent in our Pack). My main problem is that she didn't really want to help, she wanted to do something that she never talked with anyone about and then we she didn't get to do it she left. Plus, she made rude comments about how we recruit which given the results is quite effective.

 

[PACK15NISSAN 10]

John,

 

Our COR is a paper figure only, we only see maybe once or twice a year. The only time he steps in is when there is a problem with the scouts and the facility.

 

It is not our packs job to help another pack start up. I agree that if there are enough parents and boys to start a new pack that is closer for them then to do it. But for us to use our resources to help them do this, especially after they just flopped a few months ago is crazy.

 

As far as the recruiting booth, we are not allowed on school property at this particular elementary. We have scouts and scouters in uniform stand on the sidewalk and hand out fliers as people come in. It has all our recruiting information as well as telephone numbers if they have questions.

 

Our UC was present, he helped some but like I said we pretty much have everything under control. The only reason the DE was there was because she asked to be. She is relatively new and wanted to help (she is also a scout parent in our Pack). My main problem is that she didn't really want to help, she wanted to do something that she never talked with anyone about and then we she didn't get to do it she left. Plus, she made rude comments about how we recruit which given the results is quite effective.

 

Short,

 

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against starting a new pack and a know that we really don't have any control over it. What irks me is tha she wanted us to do the work so she can get the credit. It is wrong for us to recruit new scouts do all the leg work and then he whisper in their ear that she wants to start a new pack closer to home for them. If that was the intention she should have stated that upfront and we wouldn't have recruited from that school.

 

[BadenP 93]

Hey Pack15

I hate to tell you but no matter who starts a new unit the DE gets credit for the increase in district membership. Usually the DE only starts a new unit where none or very few already exsist. As far as school nights, depends on the school district, when I was a DE I was the only one permitted by the school district superintendant to approach schools to set up a school night, and they allowed me to set up a table during school hours several days prior with promo giveaways and information flyers about the big night. I usually took a volunteer or two from the pack, troop with me and it worked out great. Sometimes the Girl Scouts came with me and set up a table as well at the school. Times have changed and many schools will not let anyone in anymore.

[shortridge 184]

What you guys have going for you is an apparently strong pack with a good program. Just keep doing what you've been doing, offer these new Cubs the best program, training and support you can, and if they choose to leave, that's their prerogative.

 

I do agree the DE should have been upfront about her plans.

[packsaddle 753]

I agree with Shortridge. Just do your best and don't depend on a DE for anything.

I was trying to hold an old pack together and build it back to some state of health. The DE allowed another very strong pack to contact our parents to try to recruit them over to their pack. At the same time the DE started up a new pack at another church, taking some of our recruits.

He seemed completely clueless about how this was impacting an existing pack that was trying to rebuild. It was almost as if he wanted the pack to fail.

So I have never had any further use for any DE as a result. They're there and I can't stop that. But I don't trust them.

[John-in-KC 311]

Pack,

 

Gung Ho, while it's come to mean over-enthusiasm, actually means in the Chinese "All Pull Together." Ask Gunny, he'll confirm that

 

Scouting works best when all the moving parts do what they should. If you have a neverthere IH/COR, it's time for the CC/CM to have a friendly cup of coffee with them, and talk about the Chartered Partner and the Unit.

 

Keep doing what you're doing in program. Like others have said, the DE's job is to grow units. If she gets her critical mass, there'll be a new unit at that other school, and you can concentrate on the kids that are already in your Pack, as well as the subset that's truly local.

 

 

 

Good Cubbing.

[Twocubdad 665]

If your DE wants to get off her duff, do her job and form a new pack, great. The more the merrier. And next year you guy can do you best to help the new guys out at recruitment time.

 

But if she's going to snark around, whisper about taking boys from you to form a new pack, yet still allow you to do the heavy-lifting of recruiting, forming dens, recruiting and training leaders, that is incredibly unprofessional. That's not how things work. I'd call her on it. If she doesn't like the way you handle recruiting, she should stay home. She sure as heck isn't adding anything to the program.

 

She should kissing both your cheeks (fill in you own mental image) for taking the slack from the pack that folded. She may be down a pack, but at least the total membership number aren't taking a hit since your pack is picking up the boys.

[BadenP 93]

You guys just don't seem to get it A DE can only be successful if his units are strong and successful and growing. Yes he is suppossed to start new units but not at the expense of his exsisting ones, at least thats what I was taught at National when I was a DE. A DE is suppossed to provide council support to the units and district activities. As far as money is concerned if a DE is providing poor service to the district then his FOS campaign will surely fail and as a result he will fail all his tasks he is evaluated on. So if you think your DE is screwing you over talk to the SE you bet he will fix it fast. While it sometimes might seem as an adversarial relationship between volunteers and council, in a well run council it is actually a symbiotic relationship both parts dependent on each other and both parts successful with mutual cooperation.

[Lisabob 13]

What Baden says is certainly true, in terms of what I have heard from scouting pros.

 

But then... sometimes there is incredible and unreasonable pressure being placed on DEs (especially on young & inexperienced DEs) to start up X number of new units by a certain date. I know one new DE who was informed that she would either start 8 units in her first year (in an area where cub scouting was pretty well saturated already), or she'd be fired. THe result of such unreasonable pressure on new scouting pros is sometimes that they do short-sighted things.

 

I am not trying to excuse your DE, Nissan. She sounds as though she was acting in a way that would make any volunteer upset. But she may be under tremendous pressure to produce ridiculous results, or else. Talk to her about it. If your CO is not active, then the CM or CC could be a good connection to the DE. Be kind, but let her know how you'd have preferred things to go, and what you are willing to do to help scouting grow in your area.

 

(Incidentally, I agree with John that the COR or IH should be more active, and it is also part of a DE's job to ensure a CO understands the role they are supposed to play. But I wouldn't want an inexpert and obviously somewhat ham handed DE coming to meet with *my* CO - who knows what might be said and to what effect - so I would hold off on that for a while.)

[BadenP 93]

After reading Lisa's post I have to say any SE forcing a new or any DE to start a ridiculously high number of units where they are not needed should be demoted to DE and given the same task and threat. If Nationals focus has become so narrow and as ill thought out as you guys describe then it is time to demand accountability from them. You know after working for the guy I know how Mazzuca thinks and plans and sometimes his goals were totally unrealistic with the reality of the situation. I think all SE's should get much better training on how to create a realistic and obtainable business/management plan, conducted by top business professionals and not BSA staff.

[Eamonn 61]

I bumped into my pal Ben yesterday.

I like Ben a lot. He is a nice older guy, who seems to have been around forever. I have a photo of the two of us taken at our local Scout Camp in 1977.

Ben has been with 133 all this time, I'm not sure exactly how long.

His family are now raised, his sons are about my age.

While he is active in his church and the VFW, 133 is and has been a very big part of his life. He has serves as ASM,SM and is now serving as the COR.

133 is in the small town next to where I live.

I'm told that many years back there were six or seven different units in the town, but for the past 20 years or so 133 has been the only show in that town.

The town is slightly bigger than the one I live in. Where We have about 4,700 they have about 5,200 people.

Right now our town is down from having nine different organizations chartering units to only six.

 

133 has up until the past couple of years been one of the stronger units in the Council, with a thriving Pack along with a very strong Troop. Sadly things are not going well. The Leadership just isn't there.

About a year ago I talked with the R/C church in that small town and we got a new Pack. In fact it was just a Tiger Den.

We started with eight kids and lost two of them. This year they have a Wolf Den of six and a Tiger Den of nine.

The kids in this new Pack are having a great time.

Meanwhile at the last District meeting Ben gave a COR report saying that the CM "Forgot" about that months Pack meeting!!

When we met yesterday he chewed my ear off telling me that a big reason why Pack 133 was not doing well was my fault for starting the new Pack.

As I say I like Ben, he was a close friend of my Father-in-law and shares the same birthday and date as my Mother-in-law. Much as I might have felt like telling him to go pound salt! I didn't. I did point out that many of the leaders that 133 have on their charter are not active. The guy listed as being the CM feels that he is just filling in until someone else comes along. He was CM when his son was a Cub Scout and I took the Lad to the 2005 Jamboree, so he has to be about 17 or 18.

I'm not ever sure if a new unit is going to make it or not.

I do know that success as a rule breeds success. Even when the small town I live in had nine Packs, one Pack had over 70 Cub Scouts.

 

The goal for most DE's is to make Quality District.

The membership requirement is to end the year being plus one.

One more Cub Scout, one more Boy Scout, one more Venturer and one more unit.

As a rule in the District I serve we lose about 150 Cub Scouts a year, about 20 Boy Scouts and a few Venturers.

We have lost as many as six units and as few as none.

The goal of plus one very much depends on what has gone on in the past year.

Back when I was District Chair. I was willing to accept that losing the youth members was more or less a given. My thinking was that there wasn't very much I could do about it. But losing a unit! This was just not acceptable.

We as a District had enough people to ensure that this should never happen.

In ten years we made Quality nine times.

Taking Scouts from one unit to another unit?

Really serves no or little purpose. At the end of the day the membership count for the District is the membership count. Taking kids from a strong unit which provides a program which will keep them is better than taking them away to join a new unit which may or may not be around.

The unit is a unit! For the DE to end up plus one, the new unit can get away with having the minimum number of members.

 

Sometimes the reason for starting a new unit has nothing to do with the DE. There are organizations who want to be involved with the BSA as a way to serve the kids in that organization.

I've had a preacher who wasn't able to get on with the leadership of the Pack the church chartered allow the Pack to move on and find a new CO. Then a year later contact me about starting a new Pack.

All to often we volunteers forget that the BSA is only half of what is going on.

As for my relationship with our professional staff?

I will whenever and wherever possible work with and go through volunteers.

Volunteers tend to have the same goals as I have.

If there is a problem with a new unit being started on the doorstep of another? The people I'd talk with are the District Membership Chair and if I was getting no where there I'd talk with the District Chairman.

Eamonn.