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If Cub Master and ACM wont listen....

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I am having problems with the Cubmaster of our Pack. I was a cub and boy scout through Star rank... and am the only former scout who is now serving in any leadership capacity in the Pack.


A number of "younger" den leaders and parents are being met with silence from our CM and ACM. Both of these men have been in leadership for several years now... they are what we call the "old guard". Then there is a group of young leaders and parents who want to do more, and are questioning the "old guard", and their pratices...


Here is current example... Our pack had over $7,000 in the bank at the end of May. Our local district day camp, like many, is experiencing a drop in registrations. I sent out an email in which I suggested that the Pack pay for half of the fees, in order to try to generate more regristrations. (Camp is in two weeks)


The response from the CM and ACM ???!! Silence... No email or return phone call. Called the Pack Chair and her response, "Well.. that decision must be made by the CM and ACM... and traditionally we only pay for "Pack" events... not council or district events.


Some of us youngin's also have even questioned how our CM and ACM have remained in power... (Who elected them for life..?!)


What can we do? Other than leaving to a new Pack...(Other Packs in our area are struggling... would love to have us come and our boys come to theirs. Three young leaders have secretly spoken about taking our boys and leaving... (would take about 1/2 the pack away... effectively killing the pack next year)


The current CM told a group of younger DL's that "Next year when myself and ACM are gone, you guys can change the pack anyway you want because we'll be gone."

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The Pack belongs to your charter organization and ultimately who serves in leadership is up to the Charter Organization, via the Charter Organization Representative. As a matter of policy, the Pack Committee, not the Cubmaster or ACM should ultimately be deciding how funds are used and what happens. The Cubmaster's resposibility is to come up with program ideas, present them, and implement them as approved by the Committee, as well as be the "face of the Pack" and provide the Pack with energy. Your Pack may or may not have a policy about only paying for Pack run events, however I believe that there is an argument that this event could be sponsored by the Pack. Remember however that the Committee's resposibility is first to the Pack before the Council. If it is something that benefits the boys (and I personally believe that this would) then that would be valid. Remember however that the Committee should have an annual budget and these funds may be already allocated. Are they used for startup next year? Are some of them planned for a purchase such as a trailer or a Pinewood Derby Track? Remember that just because there is $7000 there, that does not mean that it doesn't have a name on those dollars for an event or purpose.


All of that said, the Cubmaster should be responding to you and that is just bad management. If it is just this time, maybe he is busy right now. If it is always, then that is poor communication.

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TO reply to last person's comments:


Our Charter Organization Rep does not attend the committee meetings. The CM and ACM run the show. The den leaders who come to the Pack Committee meetings are the "de facto" committee.


The committee chair told me that "The CM and ACM make the decisions." She sees herself more as a volunteer and figurehead of the pack committee with no actual authority to decide things. She passes that responsibility to the CM and ACM. Essentially our CM and ACM are the CEO and Vice CEO of the "corporation".

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I know that you may already know this, but that is certainly not the way that it is supposed to be. The COR does not necessarily attend Committee meetings, however, the CO, via the COR is who actually approves and "fires" all volunteers from the Committee Chair to the Asst. Den Leaders. For example, I am a Cubmaster and I do a lot of planning and organization; however everything that I do is subject to the approval of the CC and the Committee. I wouldn't want this any other way as far as I am concerned.


The CC is not doing her job per say. It is the CC that is responsible to the CO for everything the Pack does, not the CM or ACM. The Den Leaders are not supposed to be committee members. The Pack Committee should consist of a Committee Chair, a Treasurer, and any others necessary to the running of the Pack, but should be limited in size for efficiencies sake. Den Leaders, the CM, and the ACM may contribute to the Committee. In some Packs, they may even be allowed a vote, but this is not really the way it is designed and they are not even allowed by BSA to be registered as Committee Members.


The idea is that the Committee is responsible for overseeing the program and the CM, ACM, and Den Leaders are responsible for implementing the program. Your options however are limited to a) talking with the COR/CO; b) talking with the Unit Commissioner or District Executive about this; or c) ignoring it and waiting it out. If it is a power trip issue, then the CO/COR should be the one to deal with it. If it is an organizational or knowledge issue, then the UC or DE should be the one to deal with it.

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The $7000 did not just appear in the Pack's account overnight. Your Pack obviously has had a good year or two of fundraising. Have you discussed the Pack budget, and plans for that money in Committee meetings? Is a big purchase in the works? Is there an expensive trip coming up?


Instead of sending out emails (just CM/ACM, entire Pack?) Why not give the CM a call on the phone, or visit him in person. You did call the Committee Chair, did she say there was a reason that much was being kept in the back?


While having $7000 the Pack can not use is questionable, it is not necessarily a bad thing, or the end of the world. Why are you and other leaders ready to quit the Pack over it? What else is going on?


You have stated in other posts that your Pack has already had the District Commissioner out to talk to the CM/ACM and they pretty much stated that it is their way or the highway. Have you spoken to your COR? The COR might not attend Committee meetings, but he/she might just be interested to find out what is going on in the CO's Pack that is causing Scouts to leave (36 to 24 to 12 or less) and the Pack to be on the verge of shutting down.


Are any of the leaders in your Pack trained?


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Several points here - also please know that I would like to make you think rather than tell you how to handle. That is the most appealing aspect of this forum to me.


Last post hit one nail right on with training. Are you trained? Is the CM/ACM trained? Is the committee trained? I say no or this problem likely would not exist.


Secondly, I am a CM and have been in a similar albeit different situation in the past. Here are where my thoughts took me.


1. The Bible says in Romans that we are to submit to those in authority and that they serve in that position because God allows them to hold that position. AS a man of faith this one was instrumental to me. (Please no theological discussions - these are my beliefs and I respect yours if they are different)


2. The CM/ACM at some point likely did something to "earn" those positions - and if your Pack account has $7000 dollars someone in a leadership position is doing an OK job, aren't they - most packs in our area would love to have those kind of resources. Also, they hold a leadership position and regardless of your scout experience they have dealings wiht council and district folks that you have not. I to was active as a child but this leadership thing is altogether different.


3. Are you in it to do it your way or for the boys? Most times when we feel we are right and "they" are wrong we are doing what "I" feel is right. I've been there and learned some things the hard way. As a DL you are to focus on the Den of boys you lead and the CM does the program. Perhaps, before sending the email you should have consulted the CM first. He/She may have been offended and thought you were overreaching.


4. What message does it send to the boys if you up and leave? If you don't like it boys we can go somewhere else were they will do what we want and we can have our way? That's likely the message they would get at thier age as they do not possess many of the powers of reason as we do at our age. Also, what values and ethics will they learn by seeing you as a leader follow the leader - after all isn't that what you are asking them do weekly?


5. The CM/ACM has already told you per your post that you "young guns" can do whatever you liek as they are gone in a year. Is that really that long? You or one of your peers may be CM then and if the committee agrees yoou can make changes as you see fit.


6. I applaud you for wanting to pay fees to help district registrations - but I doubt one pack would make a big difference. IN my experience if parents are going they will sign up and the Pack paying isn't really going to encourage that many. Also, poor district registrations is indicative of a larger problem and the District Commissioner staff should be working on those issues.


Again, I want to make you think and encourage you to just focus on the boys - if we as adults did more of that I think we would all have larger Packs, happier parents, more leaders, better event participation, and likely larger financial resources.


Good luck and keep us up to date!



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Evmori, a broad statement like that is not correct. Although for a small Pack that may be a lot, for a Pack of our size, that is almost the expense of some events. Additionally, if there are funds being collected for an expenditure such as a trailer or new PWD track, that can run several thousand dollars. Finally, if the Pack relies mostly on Popcorn sales to raise funds and especially if the Pack provides a lot of things for the boys (such as books or even uniforms), that amount of funds could easily be needed to run the Pack through the next Popcorn Sale which would end in Oct/Nov. That is four to five months away with roundup and possibly at least one major event such as a campout...so $7000 is not necessarily a lot of money to have in a Pack account. There should be a reason for it though.


Our Pack for example has an accumulating account for major equipment replacement (PWD, etc); an account for Scout Accounts (fundraising money they can spend on activities); an account for scholarships ($1000); an activities account for events; and the general operating account. So as you can see, it is not uncommon for our Pack account to run in the $5000-$10000 range, and sometimes over $30,000 after Popcorn Sales. This would of course be less for smaller Packs, but $7000 would not be unreasonable if the dollars have a purpose.(This message has been edited by pack212scouter)

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We left our old pack 4 years ago (after 8 years with them) for just they same reason and had soooo much more fun in the new pack.


A unit has to fit the ideals and goals of the boy and parents, and they are all a little different.

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I'm not sure about the other stuff, but from my time as cubmaster $7000 is not uncommon to have in the bank, and it is needed to get the program going for the year. Remember you have to buy the popcorn before you get your sales money, so you need to budget for that. I also budget for recharter, because I pay for that as other checks are rolling in too. Then there are all the outings, banquets, and awards. There is a cushion a pack needs to get through the fall. When the new leaders take over I think they will find this out quickly :-)

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