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Is it double counting?

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Double dipping is a no-no right? I am confused as to the requirements and electives and the awards in the back of the book. Is it double dipping if I use the creek cleanup for bear elective 15e AND as Outdoor activity award 5 or 6 (or CS LNT #4 or CS World Conservation Award #3)? What about elective 25b and LNT #2?


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Why is that wrong? Some of the requirements for Belt Loops and pins also fulfill some of the Webelos requirements. In that case you would only have to repeat them if that loop or pin was earned while the Cub was a Tiger, Wolf or Bear. I see no reason why you would have to repeat the activity, since the goal is to learn a skill or perform a service.

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Unless there is something in the requirement or elsewhere in writing that specifically precludes "double dipping", I don't see a problem. Adding requirements is a no-no, even if it is adding a "double dipping" requirement.


Here is an example of a double-dipping rule spelled out in the requirements for the scholar pin: "While you are a Webelos Scout, and if you have not earned it for another activity badge, earn the Cub Scout Academics belt loop for Mathematics." This requirement is saying the boy is expected to double dip in the sense of counting the activity both for the mathematics belt loop and for the scholar pin, but it spells out some specific restrictions.


So, with the requirements being so specific, why would you want to go beyond them?

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How about a little help with this one:


Wolf elective 6B:

"Choose a book on a subject you like and read it. With an adult, discuss what you read and what you think about it."


In the leadership book it says that a Cub can repeat an elective, but needs to do a better job the second time to receive credit towards arrow points. We have an Akela who credited his son with 15 to 20 elective points for books read as schoolwork. Since the books were progressively more difficult (we're talking 2nd grade here - books aren't long or hard), an argument can be made that each book was 'a better job'.


We both know that we need to draw a line somewhere, and I'd appreciate suggestions on how to tell a scout that he's sorta cheating, when he's following the letter of the law.


Now that we've moved up to Bears, reading books no longer qualifies as an elective; but I can already spot some Bear electives that can be repeated more than once:

"1a: Identify two constellations and the North Star in the night sky."

One elective for every two constellations? And oh, by the way, that's still the North Star.

"1f: Find a picture of another planet in our solar system. Explain how it is different from Earth."

One elective for each of the eight other planets?



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My leader's guide (2005 printing) p 20-7 in the blue box says "Only designated elective requirements may be repeated to earn arrow points."


One of those "designated" elective requirements is wolf 5g-i. What about lego kits for wolf elective 5g-i? Mom asked me first saying, "we do those all the time". A cooperative mom and boy does not have fine motor issues, I just said, 'lets count just one lego kit'.


On a related note, have you seen the boys life reading contest? It would require writing a one page report to earn the patch.

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For some of the electives that can be done multiple times, we limit it to one "credit" per month (i.e. reading books, taking care of a pet, etc.). Right or wrong? Who knows, but it keeps it within reason.


On a related note, the following website actually includes a cross reference of achievements / electives to loops/pins/other awards. Lots of good information: http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page





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Let's all take a deep breath.... :)


This is Cub Scouts. We're talking about kids (7)8-10 years old. They're doing these activities with their parents.


Now, here's my take: Explain to Mom and Dad the goal of Cubbing advancement is to give the youth variety of experiences. Gross motor, fine motor, social skills... travel to learn, play, learning new academic skills.


Here's a great comment on advancement and the family in Cubbing from the National website:



Family and Advancement


The advancement program is part of the fun of Cub Scouting. To advance in rank, boys must complete certain activities, called "achievements" or "electives," to earn each badge as they progress. A parent must sign the Cub Scout's handbook to certify that the boy completed the activity. This is an excellent opportunity for families to get to know their sons better. Family members and boys get much satisfaction from it.


Along the advancement trail, the family may be involved in many ways. Some achievements and electives require the Cub Scout to complete a project, with which most boys will need help. Others require the Cub Scout to discuss or explain certain concepts or to demonstrate his ability to apply a skill, which will require the participation of family members.


Most importantly, every achievement and elective in Cub Scouting requires a boy to do his best. It's not necessary for the Cub Scout to do everything by himself, and it is perfectly acceptable if he needs some prompting to discuss or explain a concept. Sometimes, there can be a delicate balance between being too critical (which may damage a boy's self-confidence) or too lenient (which can impair character development). The den leaders can help guide families to find a happy balance between expecting too much or too little, so that the program provides the maximum benefit to your son.


AK den leader, if they're learning the stuff, give them the credit... rank and LNT. If you look at World Conservation award in Boy Scouting, it's triggered by having earned several MBs along the way. Same concept. My thoughts.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

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The example sited is using a single creek clean up for three different awards.


What kind of example are you setting?


At work can you complete one project and count if for 3 jobs, nope. At school can they do it with their homework or assignments, nope.



An observation, If you have to plan specifically and then double count events to complete requirements your program is weak. Get off your Butt and fix the program.



It is about lessons and spending time with the boys.


I enjoy seeing the boys with shirts full of awards but they need to be earned.


So far this spring, we have participated in a community park clean up, community creek clean up, invasive species removal, not to mention the trash pick up on our monthly hike. Community service no problem.


You guys make the community service/conservation projects too big a deal. Find something that needs done and do it.



BTW the World conservation award between cubs and boy scouts is different. Have you actually looked at the requirements of those merit badges.

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I have to agree with Basememntdweller here:


Not only is it lazy do one thing and have it count for 2, 3 or even more requirements it teaches the boy do the minimum. Allow I will agree that it does not directly state anywhere that you can't "double dip", do you really want to run a program that teaches a boy to bend, stretch and push the rules to meet his agenda?


Most of the requirements don't repeat themselves and there is a reason for that. New skills are learned and applied in a variey of ways. When you to get to other awards and electives counting something he has already done does not teach him anything. It should be an opportunity for him to apply skills that he may have already learned or learn some new skills, but instead too many parents and leaders make a chance for the boy to get a freebie.


Don't go down that path, besides once you get to Webelos it is not allowed and the rules spell it out. So why get the boy used to doing one thing only to have it change later.

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I think Basementdweller, and then PACK15NISSAN, misread my orginal post (a question about the program and request for information) as "How little can I do for the boys inorder to award them as much as possible".


I'm not online for insults to my character or program, or uninformed comparisons to other people's programs.


From the earlier posts I got an answer to the program question that I asked.


Done. I'd like to close this discussion.


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How is it lazy if a boy does something 10 times instead of 1? I'm not sure lazy is the right term.


Also, there are real-world examples of people getting paid for the same work twice. For example, if you write a book, you hopefully get a royalty every time somebody buys another copy.


If you refuse to give a boy credit when the rules allow it, you're making yourself the bad guy and maybe making the kid feel bad. So, what's the point of that?


I would also be careful about treating scout achievements like school assignments. A lot of kids don't like school that much. If you don't want them to like scouting either, make it more like school.

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Yeah...re-read the original post, guys.


The poster asked if it was OK for a project to count towards an elective and towards ONE of the special awards (LNT, World Conservation, or Outdoor Activity). No where was someone wanting to count the same thing for all 3 awards.


I don't see any problem in counting something for 1/10 of an arrow point plus for one part of one of the awards, if the project meets the requirements.


Calling the poster's program weak and broken and questioning his motivation over 1/10 of a freakin' arrow point isn't exactly called for in this situation, IMHO.


Had he wanted to use the same project for LNT, World Conservation, and Outdoor Activity, then blast away, but that wasn't the question being asked.


(Edited for clarity)(This message has been edited by AlFansome)

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AKDenldr gave me what I needed from the leader book.


The parent allowing his son to count multiple book readings as 1/10th of an arrow point is in the leadership of our pack (he's actually my boss). I needed to provide him with a written reference to refuse his highly motivated son's counting every book read in school as an elective.




Thanks AKDenlder




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You wanted advice and posted your question(s) on an online forum to do that. Don't get upset when you receive an answer you don't like. If all you wanted was support for what you where going to do anyway then you have re-worded your post for such feedback.


I understood your post and even re-read it for the benefit of perhaps being wrong but I still don't agree with you. If you are doing to seperate achievements, ranks, belt loops, electives, or awards of any kind then the boy should do the requirement each time. It is double dipping when allow a boy to do one task and receive credit in more than one area, I am pretty sure that would be the definition of double dipping.




Perhaps to you it is okay, but to me and my program even 1/10 of an arrow point needs to be earned. Would you give a boy an arrow point if he only did 9 out of ten electives? Would you be upset if your child looked on another kids paper for a answer on a 10 question test? Come on it is only 1/10 of a point.


We all want the boys do their best, however the difference is that you believe that going easy on a child is in their best interest and I believe pushing a boy and making him do all the requirements to receive credit is in their best interest.




There are also many real-world situations in which you have to do something every time to get credit. If you work at Sears selling lawn mowers can you sell one and get credit for 10? No, you actually have to do the work each time. Besides I would hardly compare writing a book to doing a stream cleanup. Let the boys do something because it is good not because they will receive so many prizes or awards.


That is why so many boys do something expecting to get something out of it. What do you mean I don't get a badge for walking that old lady across the street?

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"Perhaps to you it is okay, but to me and my program even 1/10 of an arrow point needs to be earned. "


It was earned. He did the elective requirement. Period.


"Would you be upset if your child looked on another kids paper for a answer on a 10 question test? Come on it is only 1/10 of a point."


Nice misdirection. Totally irrelevant, however. This isn't school, Cubs isn't a test, and the boy isn't pulling anything over on anyone in this discussion.


"We all want the boys do their best, however the difference is that you believe that going easy on a child is in their best interest and I believe pushing a boy and making him do all the requirements to receive credit is in their best interest."


So, now you know all about me, huh?


You go on "pushing" your 7 and 8 year olds, and I'll start handing out Eagle badges like candy and I guess we'll call it even. :-)



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