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rclearh2o

Need some advice

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This is my 1st year as CC of a pack that I've been involved in for 6 years. I have a DIFFICULT WEBELOS leader on my hands (by the way he is also our CO rep). The problem is he wants to do his Crossing over ceremony with just his Den and the BOY SCOUTS (who he is also involved in heavily). I've tried to explain the importance of having the entire pack looking on as the scouts make the transition but he is insisting on having their 'own' crossing over with the boy scouts. He's said he will still come to the B&G and wants his scouts 'honored' then but it's over a month after HIS ceremony. The boys will be officially Boy Scouts at that point with registrations and all. Any suggestions?? I really would like to do a PACK CROSSING OVER CEREMONY that all are invited to.

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In the packs we've been with, the WEB IIs have their crossover ceremony usually in late winter/early spring to which the entire pack is invited. We've got the OA ceremony team out, and boys from the troops the WEB IIs are going to greeting them on the other side. In May, we have the crossover/rank advancement for the rest of dens.

 

Maybe this is what your den leader is thinking of. If not, maybe you could sell him on it.

 

I think it's really good for the littler Cubs to see what they can expect at the end of Cubs.

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Since you are talking about B&G, are these current 4th grade Webelos, with their crossing to Boy Scouts happening in Dec 2009, or Jan 2010?

 

There is a long time to go yet. Have the boys earned their Webelos rank award yet? What happens if all of the boys have not earned their AOL by the time HE is ready to cross over? What happens if some of the boys decide to go to a different Troop?

 

You might consider talking to the SM of the Troop he is going to do his crossing over to.

 

If, despite everything, he does it his way, there is not a whole lot to be done. Make sure the boys get their awards AS SOON AS POSSIBLE after they have earned them. Do not hold on to them until B&G. Have a nice AOL ceremony at the Pack meeting right after they finish up their AOL (right before they do their Troop crossover). Mention as a part of the ceremony for AOL that this is the last time the Pack will be seeing the Scouts because they will be crossing over to Boy Scouts on XYZ date with Troop 123.

 

There is no need to have them come back for B&G if the Pack has already ceremoniously presented them with all of their awards, and celebrated their departure to Boy Scouts.

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I've seen many different variations of Arrow of Light ceremonies and Crossover ceremonies. For example, my son's pack combines the two into one ceremony, delivered at the Blue and Gold banquet (which is treated as an "end of the program year" banquet).

 

In an adjacent town, I've talked with a Scoutmaster who is adamant: "the Crossover ceremony is our ceremony." There is no waffling with him -- if the pack wants to do an Arrow of Light ceremony at their Blue and Gold Banquet, it is just fine with him. He takes care of the crossover ceremony for those coming into the troop.

 

After all this, the one thing I can safely say is there really aren't any conventions or rules or anything else. It comes down to whatever it is you want to arrange between a pack and a troop.

 

In your case, it looks to me like you have a perfect case of needing separate Arrow of Light and Crossover ceremonies. A compromise solution, as it were.

 

Guy

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This is why not to have your COR be a direct contact leader. His position trumps yours. He can say "it shall be so," and it's done. It's called the Chartered Partner owns the unit. Now, would that be taking license with his responsibility? Yeppers. Even so... we see lots of people here take license with their responsibilities.

 

I'd have the quiet cup of coffee with the gaining SMs.

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rclearh2o, you posted this on April 13 with presumably a couple of weeks to go before your Blue and Gold and Pack cross over.

 

Your problem is that your Pack has these events scheduled too late in the Calendar year. The Webelos II Den leader needs to get his scouts in Boy Scouts to make some campout prior to summer camp. He needs to cross now.

 

I am one for separating the Cub Scout main events; Blue and Gold - Arrow of Light and Cross Over.

 

I know the resources of the pack are such that planning and organizing a Blue and Gold Dinner is a big deal. So Packs naturally want to use the Blue and Gold as and end of the year award ceremony. Logical Right! Except that the Webelos II program is structured to end about January or February so that the scouts can cross in early spring.

 

He may be a difficult Den Leader but he is doing what he needs to do for his scouts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Yeah we have 13 new scouts, Crossed over last day of March even that is a challenge as early bird summer camp deposits were due back in February most camps will let you add the crossovers at the early bird rate but how far will they let you push it. All of these boys have been camping with us once and will have April and May camping trip to get the kinks out b4 summer camp in June. Most of the packs round here have B&G sometime in February and then crossover in March. The WEBELOS leader is just trying to make sure his boys start boy scouts out on the right foot and without costing their parents a bundle in late fees.

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If your DL won't back down and be more cooperative, you can always smile and wave as he crosses over to the troop permanently. (Just make sure ALL of your DL positions are filled!)

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rclearh2o,

 

 

Greetings!

 

You've received some excellent advice. Here are my two cents.

 

Like a few fellow forum members, I've always thought that the Webelos Rank, Arrow of Light and Crossover should be separate ceremonies.

 

I believe the Arrow of Light ceremony is what all Cub Scouts should see. That they should strive to earn the AOL.

 

Just by looking at the nationwide statistics. Cub Scouting has the majority of numbers in the program. Unfortunately, Scouting has fewer numbers that Cub Scouting even if the Cubs (and Webelos) see a great Bridging-Over ceremony year after year, there are still families that depart from the program after the Webelos year.

 

I've always felt that the Bridging-Over ceremony is more for the Webelos II and their parents. That the pack should be invited, but at an outdoor location where they can actually bridge into a Boy Scout troop.

 

Webelos can bridge over without earning the Arrow of Light. So bridging is a ceremony of leaving the Cub Scout program into the Boy Scout program, it is not signifying an advancement completion.

 

I've encouraged fellow Scouters not to place every ceremony on the Blue and Gold event. I've hosted and attended a few B&G. Some were one hour long, a blast and everyone had fun. Some were four hour long (three hours too many) and were chaos. So I recommend that these events should be what would motivate Cub Scouts to reach an attainable goal, and I've always seen that as earning the Arrow of Light. The Bridging is great, and a good ceremony. But if I had to choose for anxious parents and energetic boys, I would show them the Arrow of Light ceremony.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

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Nike,

 

You didn't notice that Billybob Jumpback the W2DL is also the COR.

 

He can make life miserable for the CC and CM for years to come...

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Is there some reason the crossover ceremony HAS to be done at the Blue and Gold? It could be done at any Pack meeting. If his ceremony is a within a few days of the next regularly scheduled Pack meeting, can't he do it then?

 

Otherwise, why not just have TWO "Crossovers" - a small, private "official" Den crossover to get the lads on their way and the larger "ceremonial" crossover in front of the whole pack later?

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Yes, the DL/COR could reveal himself to be a vengeful, petty, mean spirited little twerp. Or, maybe he could lavish all his time and attention on the SM and the Troop CC since he'll be swimming mostly in thier pond, hopefully.

 

Let's just hope this was all some kind of calendar/communication misunderstanding and that there's almost a year to work it out. Everybody needs a little compromise.

 

 

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Uh question/clarification?

Is this a departure from the past?

How has this been handled in the past?

 

As a Scoutmaster I would be happy to accept any boy at any time, but, it seems that the Dec/Jan/Feb crossover time gives the parents the most time to adapt to the difference in the programs and to obtain the necessary items for summer camp season.

 

While good Webelos to Scout transitions are the goal and SHOULD start at the beginning of a Webelos 1 year, I don't know of too many Troops that actually have the kind of communication where a Scout who is yet to Crossover for this year isn't going to take some penalties for crossing so late.

Our camp that we normally have 1st on our list of possibilities, has pre-payment programs that are almost over already. The price hike starts in 2 days if you aren't already in the pre-payment program. Some Troops won't include the new Scout on their roster unless he's a singed and delivered part of the Troop (sometimes there are penalties against Troop recognition programs(National)/Camp awards (Camp)etc. when a smaller number than you anticipate or a portion of your registry show up)

There are other Council camping events whose payment deadlines have already past, putting the new Scout that much further behind.

In this area the later one crosses the greater disadvantage they are putting themselves in.

 

Sometimes the Webelos Leader may have more communication with the Troop and have reasons why doing it the way he suggests to you is a good idea, why not talk to him about what Troops the boys have expressed interest in and why he is bringing these ideas to you?

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Our pack does an arrow of light ceremony at our B&G followed immediatly by a crossover ceremony that is put on by the scouts of our troop. Of course all of our web.2 usually go to this troop since is only one in town. This allows the cubs to see a AOL ceremony and also gives them a chance to see and visit with boys from the troop. This is done in February which is the suggested end of the webelos program.

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As a Webelos2 leader who is breaking out of the box this year, I'd like to take a shot at this one.

 

Traditionally our Pack has combined AOL and crossing over at the B&G - we have one of those 3-4 hour ordeals, and I agree, they are WAY too long. We find ourselves this year with TWO Webs2 dens - about 16-17 boys all together. That will make for a VERY long B&G ...

 

I want my boys to have an outdoor AOL ceremony. We are going to do it at the Fall Campout, which we hold in September. I've invited the OA dancers to perform. I really don't think the CC is too hot on the idea, but the rest of the committee thinks it will make a great campfire program. I will be crossing over ONE boy then (my own son) so our Scout Troop will be there, too. The rest of my boys will cross over in February. I will include photos in the slide show that runs during the B&G.

 

The biggest reason for doing this is that I want this ceremony to be a really big deal for my boys. I'm pretty sure not all of them are going to cross over and I want to create a memory they will hold dear enough to tell their sons and grandsons about. It might even inspire them to want to keep going. IMO the ceremony at the B&G doesn't offer much in the way of a memory to honor THE highest possible achievement in Cub Scouts. There is too much other stuff going on. The boys light a candle on the wobbly AOL display and walk over the bridge to the Scout Master. That really is it. Each leader is responsible for their own group. Hopefully I'll set a high bar and others will reach for it. I kind of doubt it, though. So - do my boys just get shuffled on because that is the most effort others want to do? (I'm not implying that is all your Pack is doing - honest!).

 

I would love for the rest of the Pack to see this, but that is not a deciding factor for me. Given the choice of do it at B & G or do it alone I would absolutely do it alone. I bet I'd have the support of the old Scouters in the District, too ;)

 

Has this guy said the rest of the Pack is not welcome?

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