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A Den wants to boycott B&G and have thier own???

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Hey folks,

I am at my wits end on this on.

I have a family that can't get along with the Webelos 2 Den leader. We have created a split Den to keep the boys from fighting and the parents from glaring at each other. (Real Scout like).


So now my Webelos 2 Den Leader that has been with these boys since Tigers want to boycott our program for B&G and is convincing other W2 parents to come to her B&G celebration instead of the pack one.


Have you ever heard of anything this ridiculous.

40% of the W2 kids aren't coming?

It's their party for crying out loud.


As Committee Chair, can I forbid them from holding a B&G before the Pack does?

Can a Den Leader go buy her own awards without Approval?

Can they hold a AOL ceremony in a Den meeting?


I feel like this will really be detrimental to the pack.

Please help with all any thoughts.

They just told me and plan to have it Thurs.


I feel like I have got to stop them.

John Shepard

Pack Chairman

Pack 20

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Feel blessed you only have 6 months of squabbling left. then they will be a scoutmasters problem.


The fighting should have been dealt with immediately by the DL, CM, CC and the Parents in a conference. I have survived this and the fighting never gets better till one of the scouts leave, it sounds like the families are taking sides. There is probably an aggressor and it is with in the Packs authority to eject the problem scout. If I had to do it over again, I would act immediately and start the disciplinary process, It cost me a year of aggravation. We lost 6 scouts waiting for the one problem to get better. NEVER AGAIN


If you want to force them to the Banquet you could tell them you will not sign the advancement form till after the B&G. I don't see a point in it. Let them do their thing. Recognize them at the B&G and maybe a prayer of guidance for them and then move on.

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This all started in Feb. last year.

I or the CM didn't hear about it being a problem until much later.

The family had quit and came to me depressed that they felt unwelcome by the Den leader.


I created a new Den in Dec. to get the boy back involved and now, the problems are coming from his old Den Leader that didn't want him back.


I feel like they are trying to wreck the B&G for everyone.


I am fine with them having a separate program AFTER ours for those who don't attend. I just don't want the boys to have to make a choice, that's not fair to them. Also I think it undermines our program and tell other people later they can do whatever they want.


Am I being unreasonable to try to maintain order?



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Wow, this is really out of control, isn't it? I feel for you but you have to get this handled. As CC you have the authority (and responsibility for this pack) to get this handled as best you can. Sounds like you are dealing with a major power play here.


If it were me, I would tell the den leader that you can replace them as the DL if they continue down this path. You and your COR can do that. I realize they have been the DL since Tigers but they cannot take over and disrupt your pack this way. Maybe if they face this choice, knowing that there is so little time left in the pack, they will find a way to compromise.


Maybe they could be reminded that they are "what makes the pack go"?

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I would sit down with the CM, COR, & Webelos Den Leader, and find out just exactly what is going on, and what his problem is. Remind him he is NOT a lone den. He is part of a PACK that is OWNED by your Charter Org.


Let him know that if they want to have an in-den celebration that is fine. You can let them have the AOL pocket cards for their ceremony. However I would remind them that the awards & celebration are for the BOYS - NOT the adults. I would also stress that after 4.5 years of work, the BOYS deserve to be recognized by the ENTIRE Pack, so they will receive their awards at the B&G.


I pity the Troop that gets this Den Leader and the other parents. I would give them a friendly heads up that they are inheriting unruly infants disguised as adults.


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I guess I would make available the cards and patches to the den leader for the boys who missed the Pack AOL ceremony to be handed out later at the den meeting/event. If the den wishes to make a big deal for the boys, so be it, I don't see a problem with that. If the parents/den wishes to have the patches before the B/G, I would quietly inform them that that would not be possible in case any of the boys may miss the boycott and show up at the B/G, you wish to have the patches available for them. The boys will get a nice "party" either way. This is for the boys. One cannot force the parents to show up at the gala event, but then the boys shouldn't be penalized if their parents are being poops either.


I find the more people think they can rile up others with some kind of boycott or "message" being sent to those "others", the more they think they have won something. I just quietly respond, "Sorry you feel that way" and then let it pass without any further comment. This non-reaction keeps the control where it belongs and doesn't allow those others to think they are getting away with something. If someone comes to the battle armed to the teeth and the other guy takes the high road and ignores them, it really takes the wind out of their sails. Remember back when your parents told you to ignore the bullies? Same principle applies here. Don't get down on their playground level. Don't let them make you be someone you don't wish to be.



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To answer one question,


To buy rank awards, whoever buys them MUST turn in an advancement report to the Scout Shop. I'm not sure if that's in Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088, but it's certainly been an operating practice in every Scout Shop (National Supply Corporation OR local Council operated) I've seen.


The only program person authorized to sign an Advancement Report is the principal program officer (Cubmaster, Scoutmaster, Advisor). My Scout Shop checks the current Council roster!


So, this DL cannot run off and get her own awards, unless she goes to ...eBay.


I'd suggest a friendly cup of coffee with the DL, the COR, and you.

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I find it hard to believe that a whole DEN wants to sabotage the B&G.

If I understand your situation, you have TWO Webelos 2 Dens, and one family in Den A (say) doesn't "get along" with the Den A leader? Have I got that right? I trust Den B is fine?

And the Den B leader wants to have the Webelos (in Den A and Den B?) come to her/his celebration rather than attend the B&G with the family in question? Bizarre. How does this help the boys...

If there is time to mend fences, find your UC or DE and see if they have any experience in conflict resolution. It may be too late to try and understand the dynamics that led to this imbroglio, but the techniques and responses presented by others here may be the only thing to do.

If the Council Scout Shop does it's thing correctly, as had been said, only the CM or CC or Advancement chair can purchase awards.

"I'm sorry you feel that way".

Hold the awards until after the B&G and present them at the next Pack meeting to those that "missed" the B&G. I expect that the "Crossover" would be seperate from the AoL at the B&G? It should be...

Is it only the parents or do the boys have problems too? Feeding off their Parents attitudes?

Keep to the high ground and try not to be pulled into their whirlpool of ill will.



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"I feel like this will really be detrimental to the pack."

The situation already is a detriment to the pack.


"I feel like I have got to stop them."

Why? Let the den that wants to have their own Blue and Gold have one.


Neither den wants to co-mingle so why force this situation? I think you may be looking at this as the CC you failed to keep harmony within the ranks. I doubt there was much you could have done to change the course of this wreck.


Rather than have a very tense Blue and Gold with parents glaring at each other, allow the other den to hold their own. Go to both. Tensions will be high under any arrangement, but I think the two B&G's will diminish the overall level of discomfort.


Go with the flow, don't force it to your will.







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If they don't show, they don't show! That is their prerogative! I would tell them that the awards for the boys not in attendance will be given to the den leaders to be handed out/awarded however they deem necessary AFTER the Blue & Gold. If they don't like it, oh well!

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If the boys in both dens don't have any problems with each other, and it's just a parental problem, then there isn't a big problem. It's all about recognizing the boys for their acheivements, as such it should be one ceremony with the pack, and if the offending parents cannot be civil, and show the proper scout spirit for the evening, then ask them to drop off the boys at this time, and pick them up at this time, the parents are not welcome under any circumstances if they continue to be so petty that they cannot let the boys feel appreciated by their peers on their night of glory! Sometimes it makes you want that 2 x 4 for a "goal alignment conference" with the parents.

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I really feel for you. Tough situation.


We have kind of a "rogue" Den that used to be in another pack and had "problems" with that Pack and asked if they could come to us. They go to a different elementary school and really act as a single person.


The really hard thing is you want to do what's best for the kids. And you know that the kids dont care. My experience with boys is that they are mad at someone one day and best friends the next day. I also have a 13 year old girl and trust me, talk about drama and infighting, young girls are HARD.


I would be really really nice. I agree on the cup of coffee and basically saying "what can we do to make sure the boys have a good experience at the Blue and Gold". If one of the adults says no, ask if there is an assistant or alternate parent who can represent the Den.


I would say that the "big stick" you have is the money. This is definately a reinforcement for dues which INCLUDE all these things. If your dues include patches and the B&G you have the ability to say HOW this money is spent.


Good luck - its hard when the adults act more like Cubs than their kids

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Its really a simple case of they are either a part of the pack, or they are not.


I would go above and beyond to make sure they are invited and welcomed to the B&G, if they choose not to show, then thats on them.


However, I would also have the committee (the majority of the adult leadership in the pack), make it known that just because someone disagrees with a majority decision, that they don't have authority to usurp the cohesion of the pack.


Invite them, make no big deal if they show or don't show. Let them know ahead of time that if they choose to hold their OWN B&G, the pack committee will not endorse it, thus it is NOT a pack function and will not be funded by the pack.


Then invite them to start their OWN pack if they feel this strongly about the issue.


I'm not one to want to draw a line in the sand, but if a stand alone B&G is allowed, then what next? Den camping (not allowed in BSA regs - unless its Webelos). Do they get to have their own stand alone Pinewood Derby? Its an issue of unit cohesion. They are either part of the pack and "help the pack go", or they are their own pack - at which point they need to step up w/ adult leaders, find their own CO, and submit paperwork to council to start a new unit.


I suspect they'll be hard pressed to find enough adults in that one den to step up and assume leadership responsibilities in a new pack. If they do, then good for them - maybe its time for a new pack. Otherwise, it may help them understand WHY a pack is a pack and the Dens are not bigger or more important than the whole unit.

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