aol dilemma

[Scouting Mom 10]

Bob White Wrote: "Check with your Council's registrar. According to ours, 11 or out of the 5th grade means whichever comes first."

 

Shouldn't that be whichever comes second? Depending on when the school cut off date is for your area, there could be lots of boys turning 11 while in 5th grade. For example if the school system uses September 1st as the cut off, boys could turn 11 on Sept 2nd of their 5th grade year, but if they are following the traditional 18 month plan for Webelos, they won't earn their AOL until the following Spring. And then there is the issue of boys who were held back...

 

In my son's 4th grade Webelos den there were two boys who were held back in school prior to entering scouts. One was held back because repeated moves had him missing so much school in kindergarten and 1st grade, his parents held him back, the second boy has developmental special needs and was held back at the same time on the recommendation of the school system. Both boys will turn 11 by the end of 4th grade. The first boy elected to work extra hard and get his AOL by the time he was 10.5. He chose to move up to Boy Scouts while in the 4th grade, at age 10.5 after earning AOL.

 

Boy number 2, will probably earn his AOL by the end of 4th grade, he will be 11 years plus about 2 months. The rest of the boys in the den will only be waiting on their 6 month requirement, while working towards their 20 badges. Boy number 2 has the option of crossing over when he turns 11 in just a couple of weeks from now, when he earns his AOL probably by the end of April when the last required badges are completed, waiting for the rest of his den to crossover in Spring of his 5th grade year (after the rest of the boys pass the 6 month mark) or even waiting until he finishes 5th grade.

 

Boy One and Boy Two have the same choices. The fact that Boy 1 has an eye on Eagle already and Boy 2 has special needs affected which choice the boys and their parents have made but the choices are the same, they can get the AOL by 10.5, wait until they are 11 or wait until they are done with 5th grade or anywhere in between.

 

My son, because of when his birthday is, is one of the youngest boys in his den. He will not be 11 until the week he starts 6th grade. He could choose to move up when he gets his AOL, (about age 10.25, 6 months after finishing 4th grade) or when he finishes 5th grade (about age 10.75) or when he turns 11 and is just entering 6th grade. We will make that decision based on what is best for our son, but as parents, we have those choices.

 

As for the original poster's issue, it seems that the older brother must leave Cub Scouts once he is finished with the fifth grade, given that he is already 11, while the younger brother must wait another two months until he is eligible to earn AOL. The only exception I can see is that catch all called "special needs" If the older boy has a documented "special need" where it could be argued that moving up at the end of 5th grade isn't in his best interests, then MAYBE your Council will approve it, but I wouldn't count on it.

 

And it all begs the question of why a family would want their two boys who are OVER a year apart to advance together. It will always be a matter of either holding one back or pushing one too hard.

[LongHaul 10]

OK, awarding the AOL to someone that does not qualify is wrong on many levels. Awarding the AOL to someone that does qualify but is over the age of 11 1/2 is perfectly fine. I had a 13 year old Webelos 2 that had been held back, remember the "which ever is later" clause from the Webelos Leader Handbook. The problem I see here is the parents wanting their sons to "get the AOL together". While there is NO "REQUIREMENT" as to when advancement be awarded, only recommendations, there are requirements for earning advancement and awards. AOL is technically an awarded not a part of Cub advancement. The younger will not qualify for the AOL Award until August. Presenting the Award to the older boy in August, so long as he earned it before graduating 5th grade is also fine. The time restriction is for earning the rank or award not for having it presented to you. The real problem I see here is the parents and their lack of understanding for the Scouting program. Will they seek to hold one son back while the other catches up in Boy Scouts also? Is this just an attempt to prevent having a son in different programs resulting in more driving? What you have not commented on is the desires of the older son. Does he want to crossover in April? Is he ready for Boy Scouts, in HIS opinion?

LongHaul

[Gunny2862 11]

It's not fair to the older boy. But it is his parents who are being unfair by asking him to.

 

I don't have any say in whether or not the younger boy gets his AOL early, but I wouldn't join a boy who didn't meet the minimum requirements for Boy Scouting. It defeats the program AND puts me in an awkward legal position if he were hurt before he met the requirement.

 

I try really hard to enforce Boy Scouting requirements for advancement, I would hate to see parents who expected shortcuts to be reinforced in their expectations as their last experience in Cub Scouting.

 

If it is the parents goal for the boys to lockstep together through Scouting then they are probably in it for the wrong reasons anyway. And will probably find it won't work out they way they expect it to. It's about character, not about the Eagle rank.

 

 

[evmori 11]

Well, since the family is asking for the younger brother to earn his AOL early, tell them it is a violation of BSA policy to award an award that hasn't been completely earned. They should be able to understand that. If not, use the analogy of a car loan. You can't get the title until you make all the payments! The same thing applies to the AOL, You can't get the award until you complete all the requirements!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob 13]

I agree completely with Gunny on this one. What is going to happen when one of these boys gets elected PL and the other doesn't? Are the parents going to step in and demand equal treatment there too? What about if one finishes a MB and the other doesn't? What else will the parents ask to bend the rules on, for the sake of their convenience, even if it is an inconvenience for everybody else?

 

We've had a couple of boys who are about 18 months, 1 grade in school, apart from each other. Their parents have been pushing the two of them to march in lock step together from the time they joined cub scouts. The two boys are extremely competitive and ultra-focused on getting ranks and who can be quickest but they seem to be missing the journey along the way and often don't seem to be enjoying themselves either. While I recognize that this is their prerogative as parents, I feel badly for both boys, who have different personalities, strengths, and interests. I believe it short changes not only the two boys, but also everybody else in their patrols (the dominant attitude seems to be, "forget the patrol needs, identities, or spirit, I cannot fall behind my brother") and everyone on the adult side who get worn out dealing with the aftermath (competition spills into aggression, corners are cut, parents try to do what the boys ought to be doing for themselves, etc.).

 

Some families may do better in this kind of situation than what I'm describing but if it were entirely up to me I would tell parents a) not to hold the older boy back in order to wait on the younger boy and b) not to rush and force the younger boy to follow so closely in his brother's trail. The results of doing so are bad for both boys. Surely for just a couple of months they can either manage two separate meetings or else find someone to help car-pool to one or both of the meetings.

 

And no way would I award the AOL prior to it being earned, and no way would I, (if I were SM), register a boy who had not yet met the joining requirements.

[LongHaul 10]

As we all know the joining requirement says 10 years old and AOL so once the Pack awards the AOL, properly or not, the Troop is covered. Start saying "the boy didn't actually earn this" and you are looking for problems. As I've said before my son skipped grades and was "eligible" before he was "ready" to join the troop. dibbus1987 said these boys just joined the Scouting program so being bored with the program isn't probably a factor for the older boy. Immaturity and unpreparedness MAY be a factor for the younger boy. What is see most here is a fixation with age/grade NUMBERS and not youth members. What does the older boy want? The younger boy does not qualify for the AOL until August and without the AOL does not qualify for Boy Scouts until he graduates 5th grade. That much should not be in dispute. Whether the Pack wants to award the AOL to someone that does not qualify for it is up to the Pack. Will Scout Net reject the award? Well in my neck of the woods AOL does not go on an advancement report just as Activity pins do not go on an advancement report because they are not advancement.

LongHaul

[dibbus1987 10]

Actually, the Webelos Activity Badges DO go on the advancement reports. This may be something new, but we had to go back and put them in for the older boys who earned them before the pack began keeping good records in Packmaster, and submit the report to council.

[Scouting Mom 10]

"Actually, the Webelos Activity Badges DO go on the advancement reports. This may be something new, but we had to go back and put them in for the older boys who earned them before the pack began keeping good records in Packmaster, and submit the report to council."

 

This may vary from council to council. Although there is a place in PackMaster for it, it can easily be overridden...in fact, if you put in Webelos or AOL without putting in the required badges for it, it will give you an error message with the option to ignore it...it doesn't let you ignore Bobcat, however. AND although there is a place in the online advancement for Webelos badges, our Council doesn't require they be reported (at least not yet).

[Gunny2862 11]

LongHaul,

I agree completely with one aspect of what you are saying. That it is about the boys - but would that also mean that because a boy(the younger)(or his parents) wants an award he hasn't met the requirements for, that it should be given to him?

 

But, in this case it is the parents we must convince. If, for no other reason than that, their signatures are required on the application for the older boy.

 

So ultimately we will see that one or more of the following is true: the older boy is held back, the younger boy wronged with an unearned advancement, the boys join in appropriate sequence, or the parents make such an issue out of what should be a non-issue that the boys don't want to be in the program, are in it without parental support, or finally, the parents figure it out and get on board with the real program and drop the "perceived" agenda of special treatment.

[Bob White 20]

The rule is 11 OR out of the 5th grade. If it was whichever came second then it would have to read 11 years old AND out of the 5th Grade.

 

 

[evmori 11]

Whether the Pack wants to award the AOL to someone that does not qualify for it is up to the Pack.

 

No it isn't up to the Pack. You can't award something that hasn't been earned!

 

The rule is 11 OR out of the 5th grade. If it was whichever came second then it would have to read 11 years old AND out of the 5th Grade.

 

It is whichever comes 1st. And & Or make no difference. But if he is registered, he is registered until the unit recharters again.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Gunny2862 11]

Or he transfers...

[LongHaul 10]

Although a Webelos Scout reaching the age of 11 or completing fifth grade is eligible to become a Boy Scout, he may remain in the Pack for six months after his 11Th birthday or until he completes the fifth grade whichever is later. Page 7 of the Webelos Leader Guide bottom of page.

 BW can't seem to separate the Boy Scout joining requirement age from the mandatory separation from the Cub Scout program age, which is what is being discussed in this thread.

 >>Whether the Pack wants to award the AOL to someone that does not qualify for it is up to the Pack.

 No it isn't up to the Pack. You can't award something that hasn't been earned! <<

Sorry Ed but who or what is going to stop them? In Councils like mine where AOL does not get reported as advancement the is no checks and balance. This is an AWARD and it is up to the Pack to verify completion of the requirements. It's the same as Merit Badges, how many times have you said that the badge is considered earned if the MBC signs the card. If the MBC signs a card for a boy that didn't do the requirements the boy still gets the badge. Yes you can award something to someone that does not deserve it look at the Silver Beaver, Award of Merit, Academy Awards etc. Yes the Boy Scout application says 10 years old and have earned the AOL not 10 years old and have been awarded the AOL but as I've said if you start down the "he really didn't earn it" road you looking for trouble. Every Boy Scout rank past First Class uses the same terminology "earn".

LongHaul

[evmori 11]

If anyone is paying attention, there is a matter of time which can't be changed LongHaul!

[Lisabob 13]

Thank you LongHaul for posting the relevant snippet from the WDL book. I thought we'd just cleared up this same issue in another thread last week but perhaps not for everyone.

 

Ed, reality in my neck of the woods is that we do report AOL but that it would be unheard of for council to verify or check it. Maybe some councils are more detail oriented for cub records but based on the stories people tell here, and experience with my own council, I wouldn't expect that to be the norm. Still, I'd hope a cub leader wouldn't give in to pressure to award a rank early that the boy hadn't yet earned, just to be a "convenience" to the boy's parents. Nobody ever said parenthood was about convenience, as far as I know, and I think such a request would stick in the craw of most scout leaders.