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Bob, you were so intent on mocking me, that you didn't bother to really read what I said. Most people today don't want to do for themselves.


To address your smartass remarks, as usual Bob, you miss the point. The question isn't do we not embrace new things, the question is should we abandon old things.


Hell, everyone has a GPS today, why bother teaching them to use a compass or find North using a watch? Oh dear, what to do we do when the GPS' batteries die?


Heck, we carry them there spiffy stoves, why worry about learning to build a fire? Golly, the stove just quit working? How do we cook?


Hey, we're lost because the GPS died and we're wet and and cold. Too bad that no one can build a fire.


Hell, we've had RVs for 80 years or more. Why not skip the tents and sleep in the Winnebago?

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Let's lighten up here. I thought that Bob's last post was pretty clever. Frankly I didn't think he had it in him, I've gotten so use to his strongly stated opinions. There is a side to Bob we did not appreciate before.

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Ouch Yaworski, Calling me a Smart%#@, well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.


The point is.. none of the scout methods is called "use old things". The Three aims of scouting do not include "learn woodscraft history". The aims and methods are not dependent on the age of the tools. A troop where everyone uses a GPS can experience growth in Character, Citizenship, and Personal Fitness just as well as a person with a compass.


A carpenter that uses a cordless drill/driver is no less a carpenter than the one that uses a brace.


By the way you could do with a little more humor and a lot less scorn toward other peoples opinions. For a scouter, your posts lack a great deal of character development.


Just an after thought, since you don't think learning about hard drives is a good use of time, who do you plan to go to when your computer needs repair...an auto mechanic perhaps?


B;)B White


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It took my 80 year old father-in-law five minutes to figure out how to put in a hard drive. It took me about as long. It isn't that hard, why waste time in high school with it. Maybe they should learn how to speak or compute a tip without a calculator.


As for carpenters, I don't know a good one that doesn't know how to use a handsaw or a brace and bit.


As for your boys with the GPS, I still ask what are they going to do when their batteries run out. You won't answer that. All you can do is spout BSA rhetoric.

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in order to earn their Second and First Class Ranks the scouts had to learn how to use a compass and how to find directions day or night without a compass. In fact the New Scout Patrols in my son's troop learned these skills last weekend. What might surprise you even more is that, since all of our older scouts were at the Northern Tier High Adventure Base, I taught the scouts those skills.


If the batteries ever go dead, should they ever own a GPS, I am confident they will be just fine. But more importantly they spent the weekend...

>outoors hiking and camping= personal fitness

>as patrols under youth elected leaders=Citizenship

>with Adult Role models=Character development

>in uniform when appropriate=Character and citizenship development

>advancing=Character development

>behaving according to the oath and law=Character development


It's not that they came back being able to find a compass bearing that makes it scouting. It's coming back with growth in character citizenship and fitness. The compass skills, are tools not goals.


A thief who can find his way with a compass is not a good scout.


A neighbor you can depend on, that helps the community but doesn't know declination, is a good scout.


I'm told my neighbors see me as a good scout. I'm really not concerned how you see me.


Happy Scouting,

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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"If the batteries ever go dead, should they ever own a GPS, I am confident they will be just fine."


Not when they drop compass reading like they have done to other "traditional but outdated" skills like tracking, semaphore, morse code.


However, I'm sure that when compass reading goes away that you'll embrace it with open arms because you believe that anything that issues forth from BSA HQ is true and proper.



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Practicing a little fear mongering today Y? The scout handbook has not dropped compass, do you have any real information that they are about to? They have not dropped Tote n chip, do you have any hard evidence that they are about to. Care and use of an ax is still taught and required for advancement. Do you have knowledge to share that those advancements will soon change?


Why do you create these imaginary scenarios, they just upset you?



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Bob, you really need to get help. You aren't a very good Scout or Scouter because you don't follow the Scout law. I never gave you permission to call me "Y" but you have taken it upon yourself to do so. That isn't very courteous, is it?


As for the rest of it, many people have come to realize that you avoid the issue and twist other's words to show how knowledgable you are of BSA doctrine.


If BSA came out tomorrow and said, "The uniform shall be a lace shirt and skirt" you'd be the first and only member to proclaim what a positive change that is.


In a thread about uniforms, you were defending the poorly made BSA uniform with the comment that you wear yours over 100 times a year. You might want to look at finding another hobby.


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I have never backed down from a bully and I don't beleive I will let you be the first. You have been name calling and insulting people on this board unchallenged for too long.


Take a look at your last post Yaworski and tell me who is changing the subject. The topic was the teaching of basic outdoor skills in the handbook. You were getting all worked up over what some imaginary scout might do if his bateries in the GPS went dead and I said he would use the scout skills still being taught today.


You never addressed that. You wrote "Not when they drop compass reading like they have done to other "traditional but outdated" skills." but they haven't dropped compass have they? Your projecting on something you have no evidence of. By the way tracking is on page 93 of the Boy Scout Handbook. As far as semaphor, give us a break, when was the last time you know of that someone even carried semaphore flags. Oh, we don't do smoke signals either, sorry about that.


You believe that scouting is in a death spiral and yet the only suggestion you've offered so far is that the shoulder loops and service star backings should match. Pure genius! How is it that has escaped us all for so long. Why, think of the difference that would make in the development of a young person. You are indeed the master of scouting methods and I humble myself before you!


I can only imagine the esteem in which you are held in your council.


As far as your feeling like I've insulted you, I will remind you of your own words form another string "it's not an insult if it's the truth".


My apologies to the other posters but this guy really frosts me. He brings nothing to the table but complaints and distain for the BSA and toward most of the posters on this site. He offers nothing in the way of actual scouting methods or even an understanding of the program other than superficial fashion tips. If I have dampened the spirit of the bulletin board with my rebuttals to his tirades, I'm sorry.

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You still dodged the issue that the BSA continues to teach traditional outdoor skills despite your baseless, fairy tale, threats that they are being eliminated. Even those vital to survival like....semaphore.


Please share with us your vast understanding of this program you treat with such distain. We hang on you your every word.


Bob White

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As often happens when one or more immature or insecure people hold differant views, this thread has fallen away from a discussion of the use of tools that some would do away with and others use daily.


It has denigrated to name calling and the call for mental health professionals by an appearantly insecure person.




I do not always disagree with Bob, however this thread he has attempted to be logical with his arguments. I did not see an attack, but rather a humorous discussion of the direction that "Y" was taking the thread. I have seen this same form of humor used in other threads by other posters. It should be taken in the light that it was meant - an exageration to get a point across.


It seems that you would rather name call than discuss the issues. Get a life. I just came back from what is probably our last local campout until snow flies due to another range fire. Life is too short and the boys too important to belittle our colleges with whom we have a disagreement.


We do not teach our boys how to ride a bus, there is no public transportation here. We do teach living in bear country because there have been bears, mountain lions, and moose seen within town.


Paul Johnson


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Bob, Bob, Bob, don't know what we're going to do with you. Maybe we'll ask your mother to restrict your computer access.


You keeping mixing apples with oranges in an attempt to hide that fact that you have no legs to stand on.


The discussion of loops and service stars is from a different group and has nothing to do with skills.


As for the tracking section. Gee, I wonder how I could have missed that in the handbook? I didn't see a single picture of an animal track.


You may mock semaphore but the Navy still considers it an important skill as they do Morse Code. I'm here and you're a half mile away, across a ravine. How do we communicate? Oh yeah, with our FRS radios only until the batteries die.


You see, these archaic skills are wonderful for teaching character. Anyone can lite a propane stove or use an FRS radion. It takes time and energy to learn a skill like code, fire building, or ax usage. Learning that skill builds character because the doer is left with a sense of accomplishment. Kinda like building a house from brick instead of gluing vinyl siding in place.

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