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Twocubdad

Square Knot Earned?

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I'm the Committee Chair of a large Pack and need advice on how to handle a problem with our district training chairman.

 

Six months ago, our Cubmaster was recruited away to serve as Scoutmaster of a new Troop. Fortunately, we have a great leader who was willing to step into the Cubmaster slot. This guy is an old Eagle Scout, has been through the program as a den leader with an older son, has all the training and is well versed in the program. At the time he moved into the Cubmaster position, he was (and still is) serving as a Tiger Den Leader with his younger boy. According to him, working directly with the boys in the den is his favorite part of Scouting and he has no intention of giving up being a den leader. No problems so far.

 

With the end of the year, he has submitted his application for the Tiger Leader Training Award, having completed all the requirements. Now here's the problem: our district training chairman has denied the award because he didn't complete the full year as a registered Tiger Den Leader. The last six months he was offically registered as Cubmaster.

 

The exact wording of the requirement says "Complete one year as a registered Tiger Cub den leader." I understand that "registered" means "registered" and that no one may be registered in more than one position in the same unit. I also know that there is a difference between being registered to a position and holding or functioning in a position. Frankly, we all know that if it weren't for volunteers wearing multiple hats, the whole program comes to a screeching halt tonight.

 

My purpose here is not to get into a hair-splitting debate over the interpretation of the requirements. Bottom line is I think the training chairman's decision is just plain wrong. This guy earned the award and deserves to get it. As his Committee Chair, I intend to go to bat for him to get it.

 

What I need to know is how do I go about doing that? What is the appeals process? Is there a formal process or am I better off working behind the scenes to make this right?

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I anxiously await replies to this also. As my two sons went through Cub Scouts, I had to be careful to "play the game" right with my registration so that I could earn various knots. As with many of us, I wore more than one hat throughout my years as a Cub Leader. Fortunately, my Pack allowed me to register under the position needed to fulfill the letter of the law, while fulfilling the role of a second position. (I was a "Committee Member" for most of those years as Pack Treasurer, but registered through the years and served primarily as Den Leader, Webelos Leader, etc.)

 

In some cases for other leaders, powers that be would vouch for service years for a particular knot so long as the same time period was not used for another knot. While not technically correct, I thought this was a fair and equitable solution. If the service was truly provided, why not recognize it?

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On the rare occasions when I've encountered the "what's his position?" question, the pack/troop recharter report has always been the tie-breaker. In other words, the position in which you registered in January is how Scoutnet carries you until the recharter next January. I think they have your fellow Scouter on a technicality. If the Tiger knot was important to me, I wouldn't have rechartered as the Cubmaster, even if I was doing the Cubmaster's job in a de facto sense.

 

You're dead on regarding multiple-hat leaders. A couple years back, I was our Pack's Committee Chair, Cubmaster, Treasurer, and Events/Activities chair for a several month period. I know, I know, I was writing letters to myself and had a velcro position patch...believe me, it was not by choice. Also, I've always agreed to serve in whatever capacity the Pack/Troop needed me. If I didn't have enough tenure in the position for the knot, then the heck with the knot, or I'll go back later and earn it if I want the fruit salad.

 

Wish you luck; as long as you're not trying to double-dip, I don't see why your training guy is being hardheaded...

 

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If this fellow is serving as a Cubmaster, he's registered with his "primary" position being Cubmaster, not his "only" position. He should have dual-registration showing that he serves as the Tiger Den Leader, too. If he was registered as a Tiger Den Leader first, then he's probably dual registered. If so, that record should show his time in position. Use that argument, along with the other eloquent arguments you've stated here, and write a letter to, or call, the chairman of the "Council" Training Committee. Your District Chair sits on that committee, as do the other district chairs, and hopefully that whole committee should be able to "see the light". This is not a time, nor is there ever a time, in Scouting, for adult leaders to be this, how shall I say this...anal...in their interpretations of the guidelines. Being registered in one "primary" position should not block the possibility of deserved recognition for efforts put into another. Case in point...your District Training Chair likely serves in another position with a troop. Which is his primary? Does he feel that he should not be eligible for any recognition for his efforts and energies spent in the other? If he does, he's really only hurting himself, and obviously, others. It's rather simple really, and you've hit the nail right square on the head. He deserves it. But, before you go swinging the bat, try to see what registrations he has, when did his Cubmaster registration became his primary, was his Tiger Den Leader registration still in force and stay in force when he took on the Cubmaster position, too?

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I agree that the gentleman should be allowed the knot under these circumstances. Twocubdad is correct when he says that no one can register in more than one position in the same unit. jmcquillan wrote "If this fellow is serving as a Cubmaster, he's registered with his "primary" position being Cubmaster, not his "only" position. He should have dual-registration showing that he serves as the Tiger Den Leader, too."

 

That is incorrect information. See section I of the Guide to Safe Scouting under "Youth Protection and the Adult Leadership"

 

Dula membership aand "primary" positions only come into play if your membership is in different units or different levels of scouting.

 

Bob White

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Doesn't the rule about no one person being registered for more than one position in a unit apply here?

 

Looks like Bob Whire Got there a second or two before me!(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

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That is incorrect information. See section I of the Guide to Safe Scouting under "Youth Protection and the Adult Leadership"

 

Again...I stand corrected.

 

Hey, give the guy the patch, and the credit due for a job well done, if, indeed, he's done the job well.

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Have him un-register as Cubmaster and re-register as Tiger den leader until he has a full twelve months on the books. The pack can go without a Cubmaster for the time being, and he can "help out" until such time as he can register as Cubmaster. Maybe this approach seems silly, but there is something to be said for going by the book.

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I appreciate your point Fscouter but that doesn't work either. In order to hold a charter there must be a registered cubmaster, committee chair, 2 committee members, 5 scouts, and a denleader for each registered age group and a Tiger den leader if you have any number of tiger cubs.

 

Bob

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This discussion confirms some conclusions that I have reached about my own "knot" situation -- (1) The Cub Scout leader awards program needs to be more flexible, and (2) the BSA should give more recognition to the fact that Cub Scout unit leadership exists on 2 levels, the pack and the den.

 

The no-dual registration rule makes perfect sense in a troop, where there is only one "level," and also within "levels" of Cub Scouting. The CC, CR and CM (and CA) all must be different people (except I think the CR can be the CC.) But what harm would result from the CM or CA being officially recognized as a den leader as well? The CM and CA do not approve leadership applications for den leaders, and I don't think "monopolization" of a unit is threatened by this combination, because the CC and CR are still there, above the fray. And CM's and CA's are den leaders in many units now, not because people don't care about the rule, but because it just isn't realistic in many units. You do have to do some adjusting at charter time. If there is only one Tiger den and the actual leader is registered as CM, someone else needs to be registered as Tiger DL or the charter will be kicked back. (If there is more than one den it is not an issue, because the charter identifies boys, not dens. Council (mine at least) does not care if there are 16 registered Tigers and one Tiger DL registered, as long as there is one. They probably realize that there is another leader lurking somewhere, but apparently they don't care, and they shouldn't. The same thing works at the Wolf/Bear level -- you could have 16 second-graders and 16 third-graders and the registrar is satisfied as long as there is at least 1 DL, though everyone knows you probably have 4 dens. (Though in a perfect world you would have a UC who would take a look at the charter and call and ask what the story is.)

 

Where was I? Oh. Back to the awards, I would not change the rule that one time period cannot count for 2 awards, therefore in the situation that started this thread, the CM/Tiger DL should be able to choose whether that time counts for the Tiger DL Award or the Cubmaster Award.

 

Then there is the "catchall" award, the Cub Scouter Award. This is still a 2-year award, unlike the den leader awards which have been reduced to 1 year. This is going to be my second knot (the first is the Arrow of Light, which I earned 33 years ago.) It is the only Cub Scout leader award that can be earned for a combination of positions (during different time periods, not overlapping.) This might work for your CM/TDL, though only after he has been registered as a leader for 2 years. The requirements are a bit odd, though. The performance requirements are sort of a conglomeration of duties of different positions (including different committee roles), and you have to do 5 (I think) of the 10. Ironically, I will earn this award not because of things that are part of the job of Assistant Cubmaster (or before that, DL), but because we do not have enough volunteers to run things like pinewood derby, the sports and academic program, etc., and I have ended up doing them myself. As you might have guessed from my discussion of charters, I also did our recharter this year, though that doesn't give you credit for any award. Likewise, a Cub CC who has a fully functioning committee, with different people doing advancement, membership, events chairs, etc. would have a tough time earning the Cub Scouter Award and would not qualify for any other award. They should do something about that.

 

Not that we should care too much about knots. In my opinion we should not invent things to do, or manipulate our registrations just to earn a knot. On the other hand, it is nice to get some recognition for volunteer work that you are doing anyway.

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It may just be a piece of cloth with a bunch of pretty thread formed into the shape of a knot, but behind it is recognition of a job well done. Personally, I can take it or leave it because I have reached a state of self-actualization in my scouting life where I know what I have accomplished and am satisfied with simply knowing that "I did my best."

 

Our adult leaders though, are a precious commodity and they appreciate recognition where earned, just as much as the boys do. I feel that recognition is the key to keeping them involved for awhile longer, even at times past the stage where their son is still in the program.

 

Kinda like my feeling that "zero tolerance" in most cases is for "zero minds". If a leader has fulfilled all the working requirements of the knot, is not double-dipping, and is not asking for something for nothing (I have seen a few of these too) but is not technically in compliance because of wearing two hats, it's a shame that we cannot recognize the service with a knot. Maybe it's time for a "Two-Hat Knot" for those willing to fill a void when nobody else will. It could be designed as two knots on the same strip!

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Thank you all for your replies. Everyone seems to confirm that I'm on the right track persuing this. If I understand correctly, my best recourse is with the Council training committee.

 

We've gone through all the permutations of juggling the registration to make this work. But we shouldn't have to play games to get this guy the recognition he earned. It's especially bothersome that peole in leadership positions at the district level are creating an atmosphere where playing games with the registration is necessary. The bottom line is that this guy has earned the award -- and yes, for a job very well done, as one of the replies mentioned.

 

This is supposed to be the Tiger Leader Training Award, based primarily on performance and completing the required training. When they change it to Tiger Leader Bureaucratic Compliance Award, I'll be quiet about it.

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You Guys and Gals that went through Wood Badge may remember in one of the Leadership skills called "Understanding the Characteristics and Needs of the Group and it's Members", the summary listed that each member of the group had five basic needs. The fourth was recognition, self-respect, independence and esteem. Maybe the Training Committee Chair needs to look back at his own training.

If the CM/TDL was registered as CM. Who did the TDL job. The award should go for that job that he did week to week. I also served as CM and DL. The DL job was every week. The CM job was hold Monthly Pack meetings. You can do both! One doesn't take away from the other. Let's change the rule.

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I think "by the book," the District Training Chair had no choice but to deny the Tiger Cub award. I was in the position of having to deny awards because the leaders only put down that they had served in the position from September through the following year (the school year, which is when the program ended from their point of view), and not the full 12 month tenure. However, I think the CC should appeal to the Council Training Committee and see what happens.

 

I really like NJCubScouter's suggestion that some Cub Scout leader awards should be modified to recognize service at different levels of the pack at the same time. I know when the award requirements were modified a few years back to clarify the "registered in the position" requirement, the intent was to get more people involved and recognize their commitment to one position at a time. But I'll bet many packs have to deal with this same frustrating situation and a good leader is being denied recognition he truly deserves.

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