A kid pulling a knife on other kids

[SSScout 1615]

Once upon a time, I was a "Special Tutor" in middle school. Kids with a particular problem (might be with a particular teacher, or a subject or needed help to catch up after a lengthy illness...) would meet with me for a period or two each day. I was a jack of all subjects! Worked close with the counseling office and the Asst Principal.

One young girl had troubles with 5 of her 6 classes. Intelligent girl. With me, her school work was fine. But she could not meet with me 5 periods a day for the rest of the school year. The Asst. Princ. said he had met with the dad, who said, in essence, "not my darling girl!! Must be a problem with your *+?#$% teachers!!" Notes home got the same result. Asst princ arranged a meeting with both parents, the girl, all six teachers, and me. First time the dad had been presented with a united front. He could not refute eight adults all saying his "darling" was a hellion in class (except for math, which she loved). Result: Dad got homework: SPend one hour undiluted time with his daughter each night. Sign off her homework assignments. Sign off on weekly reports from each teacher thru the asst Princ. This lasted a month. The girls grades went from Ds to As and Bs, her activity reports went positive. She no longer needed my time and attention.

 

Lesson for the present situation:. Mom may be getting (and believing) a highly filtered version of the incidents. She and Dad need to be made to believe that Cub needs everything that has been mentioned above, ("get his attention") AND Cub needs direct parent attention.

AND the Pack needs 'bully' attention, too. What do we expect of a CUB SCOUT?

 

"... the Cub Scout gives good will." I would be sure to somehow include the boys that backed up the Cub in the hat incident. They "got involved". Give'm a private Attaboy. Would that more people would "get involved" when they see something wrong happening.

 

You may have to put it all in writing so all can finally agree on what happened, and what the consequences will be. And stick to it. It might not be a bad idea to include your DE, 'cause stuff like this can come back to haunt you.

 

YiS.

 

[SemperParatus 1]

Grab pencil and paper...

 

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

I will not threaten another person with a knife again.

 

 

 

 

[eghiglie 10]

The boy needs some consequences applied for doing this. For his sake and the others in the Pack he has to be understand the response is because he was attempting bodily harm with weapon.

 

If I was a member of that pack I would have worried first about the safety of my son. Hearing about the wrist slap given would of given me reason to call a Scout Executive.

 

Liability aside this is assault with a weapon and a 5 th grader is way different than a Tiger.

 

But these are boys that Scouting is made for. Now is the time to fix them.

 

The boy with the knife:

He should lose the knife for at least a year

He should have been sent home immediately from the event.

He would be required to apologize publicly at a pack meeting

 

The Bullies also get consequences

They should have been sent home immediately from the event.

They should be required to apologize to the boy in a way that other learn that bullying is WRONG

 

The kids are also told that and second offense for either boy means gone for good and ever.

 

A suspension might be OK, but frankly they wont come back after it.

 

[JeffD 10]

here is how i relate the story to another 'real life' scenario.. a little off topic but bear with me.

 

this past new year's eve, a neighbor was quite ticked that another neighbor was lighing fireworks in the streetwater drain in front of his house. this neighbor went outside a little past midnight and words were exchanged about why fireworks were being lit. the fireworks crowd consisted of about 6 adults and a couple teenagers - most of whom had been drinking... the neighbor had a handgun. an argument ensued and the fireworks crowd threw some bottles at him - he brandsihed his weapon to gain the upper hand in the argument.

 

no shots were fired, but he recently pled guilty to assault with a deadly weapon and faced 5-7 years in state prison.

 

like this neighbor, the scout had to make a choice as to his actions. he could stay with the other boys in an obviously charged situation, or he could leave. the scout, like the neighbor, made a choice to stay. they also made the more important choice to brandsish a weapon. both made stupid choices.

 

the boy was lucky that no more serious injuries have happened. plus, if these are the events that you have heard of, i would be interested to hear what else has happened. like any weapon, this should only have been done as a last resort. this scout should have left the scene. this issue, to me, goes much further than just revoking whittlin chip - and the scout should be reminded as to how serious it is. had this happened later in life, the scout would have been arrested for the same actions.

 

whats to say that he doesnt get ticked enough to stab another next time? kids rarely have a true idea of the finality of death. i would hate to read a post where a scout was killed because of the utterly stupid actions of another scout.

[packsaddle 753]

I'm uncomfortable with this 'game' in which objects are thrown at other persons. If the object is a sock filled with rags (spud) or a dodge ball that might be one thing. But hard things like oranges, air potatoes, baseballs, or rocks are troubling to me and I see the risk of either injury or escalation. The idea of picking out one scout for everyone else to attack is also troubling. I see the knife as a totally wrong way to respond (the neighbor with the handgun was way out of line and deserves to get spanked in court). The environment that led to the boy pulling the knife is also suspect in my mind. Time to rethink a few things.

 

BTW, air potatoes (Dioscorea bulbifera) are noxious invasives and if the boys want to actually contribute something to society, they should help by organizing a project to eradicate these plants from areas that the community would like to restore. As the original post stated these objects are hard and actually ARE like small potatoes, up to several inches in diameter. They grow in our area but are smaller than south of here.

I would not appreciate having one thrown at my head. If I was hit, I'd be tempted to respond, tempted perhaps in an inappropriate direction, like maybe a bucket of ice cold water at an unexpected time?

[Its Me 10]

This is the latest letter from the mom.

 

"Hi again (Its Me) - Thanks for filling us in. We've had more discussions, more has been revealed. (Son) admits to taking his knife out Saturday night, but says he didn't open it. In either case, that is simply not ok! And he knows that! (Son)also says that the ones doing the throwing were not in our pack/den. He definitely felt singled out, rather than pack against pack or den against den. Thanks again. We're handling things on our end. Mom"

 

 

I wondered if he would admit to the knife incident on Saturday. I was concerned that since only my 13 year old daughter saw him pull the knife out on Saturday that he may not own up. My daughter said the knife was open. The boy says it was out but not open. hhhmmmm?

 

 

[eagle-pete 11]

I am not sure what mom means by "We're handling things on our end.", but you will need to set policy and do some CYA in the pack now, before things get out of hand.

 

At this point I believe you need to get away from involving the kids. You are not going to get a straight answer from the boy with the knife. He's had too much time to think about what story he's going to tell next. You are now going to have to rely on whatever evidence you have. You may be able to piece together a relatively accurate picture by talking to witnesses individually and then comparing stories to see where the consistencies and inconsistencies are. Once you have this information gathered and documented, you should only be dealing with adults at that point.

 

I would have a specific, well documented body of evidence and hold a meeting with all involved parents, Cub Leaders, and include your DE. I would also have, before the meeting, a plan of action to present to the parents and leaders which details the offence, consequences, and an outlined plan of what the boy will need to do in order to continue the privilege and responsibility of carrying a knife - as well as what the consequences will be if he cannot adhere to the rules of safety in Scouting. This should all be in writing and presented to the parents and leaders.

 

No better time than this should we exercise the Scout Motto: Be Prepared!

 

Eagle Pete

[JeffD 10]

All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit.

 

[Beavah 205]

Remember this from just last summer:

 

http://keyetv.com/watercooler/watercooler_story_231194118.html

 

A 14 year-old Boy Scout was taken to a Boston hospital on Friday after he was allegedly stabbed by a fellow camper.

 

It happened at Camp Wanocksett, which is on the Dublin-Jaffrey town line around 7 a.m. Friday morning. The victim reportedly had the knife in his chest for the entirity of the helicopter ride to Boston....

 

 

[eagle-pete 11]

This is horrifying...

 

What I did notice is that the article specified this was a hunting knife and as we know, fixed blades, such as hunting knives are against BSA rules.

 

Where were the leaders? Was a camp gear inspection done and how was it done? What was missed in the Guide to Safe Scouting?

 

Eagle Pete

[Its Me 10]

My letter to the Pack leadership

 

 

The issue to be discussed along with the Webelos Campout

The Issue Johnny Scout, with den 12, pulled out and opened the blade to his pocketknife to brandish and threatened other cub scouts with. This occurred on Sunday morning December 5, 2006 at the Cub-world campout.

 

The Incident,

On Sunday morning an adult from another pack brought Johnny Scout to me and said that this boy brandished a knife on other scouts while at a spot near the Baden Powel trail (the tree house tree).

During this campout Johnny Scout, was under my guardianship as his parents were not there. I removed the knife from Johnny Scout and asked a series of questions to determine if the man miss identified his intended use of the knife as a weapon. No, were the replies when I asked if he was whittling, cutting rope or otherwise using the knife as a useful tool. Johnny Scout said that he was frightened as several boys from another pack were throwing air potatoes at him and saying aim form the redhead.

At the time he was brought to me Johnny Scout, did not appear to be disheveled, nor did the man indicate that he was in a close contact fight or any fight. I saw no marks on the boy and Johnny Scout did not point out or allude to any pain he was having from air potato strikes.

There are different accounts as to how high Johnny Scout was and as such just how much peril he was in. His mother wrote that he was 12 off the ground while our own scouts remembered that Johnny Scout was just two feet off the ground.

Johnny Scout, has also admitted that he pulled out the knife the night before while chasing and rough-housing with Peter and other boys from Pack. Johnny Scout states that although he pulled out his knife on Saturday night he did not open the blade. My 13 year old daughter claims to have seen an open bladed knife during this scuffle.

Review In reviewing this matter, Johnny Scout has violated several scout laws.

- Scout Oath (or Promise) On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

- Whittling Chip: I will use my pocketknife in a safe manner at all times.

- Scout Law, A Scout is KIND. A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated I have discussed this matter with the other Webelos II leaders, our CubMaster and our BSA Council Executive.

 

Recomendations:

1. Each den shall address bullying at the den level. The leaders will discuss what bullying is and ask the boys to act out a bullying situation. The leaders will then hold a discussion on how to diffuse this sort of treatment.

2. Have 1-2 skits of the Bullying Skits performed at the December Pack meeting.

3. Have Johnny Scout submit his knife and whittling chip to the pack. Only after Johnny Scout has done both, re-completed his whittling chip and crossed over to Boy Scouts will he receive his knife and chip back.

4. Have Johnny Scout write an open letter of apology to scouts everywhere for brandishing a knife. The letter will be posted, without his name on our pack web site or on a scouter.com website.

5. Require that one of his parents be present at all times for all scouting activities for the remainder of his Cub Scout tenor.

As scout leaders we have a duel responsibility. First, we must assure the safety of all the boys and girls within our pack family. We must work to minimize, within our ability any harm that can come to our children. Secondly, we have the responsibility to help develop boys in need of a program that rewards good character and builds sound members of our community. A scout leader should demonstrate that he is as helpful and loyal as he expects his scouts to be.

Its Me

Webelos II Leader, Den 12,(This message has been edited by Its Me)

[GopherJudy 10]

I thought that Cub Scouts were NOT allowed to carry pocketknives at Cub Scout camp, etc. even if they've earned the Whittlin' Chip card. I thought only Boy Scouts were allowed to carry pocketknives after they've earned the Totin' Chip card. I remember when my son was a Cub that I had to carry his knife on campouts even though he earned his Whittlin' Chip card.

 

The boy was wrong for pulling the knife & I think he might have some anger issues as maybe he's being bullied. That's no excuse though for what he did. He should have his knife & Whittlin' Chip card removed from him & he'll have to re-earn the card as a Boy Scout.

 

I hope that he & the bullies will learn from this & never do it again.

[eagle-pete 11]

The letter looks well written and covers the major issues which need to be addressed. See if you can get your Cub Scout Committee to vote on the recommendations as well. I only mention this so that you can assure unity in the pack leadership and also so you are fully backed by the Committee incase a parent wishes to challenge your policy.

 

Great work! Let us know what the outcome is on this.

 

Eagle Pete

[eagle-pete 11]

GopherJudy

 

Nowhere in the Guide to Safe Scouting does it state that Cub Scouts are not permitted to carry knives at a Cub Scout Day Camp.

 

This may have been a policy for a specific council or at a specific day camp. I know of no such general BSA policy.

 

If someone has a reference which contradicts this, please post it and correct me. I would be interested to know.

 

Eagle Pete

[GopherJudy 10]

Eagle Pete,

 

OK, I just thought the Totin' Chip the boys earn as a Boy Scout gives them the right to carry (tote) the pocketknife. Thanks!