Has scouting become a buisness for numbers / money

[brazzin 10]

Over a year ago I was informed a new troop was starting in our area. This may sound like good news but our school has less then 900 students and the cub pack averages 4 to 6 second year webelows per year. The troop had 12 scouts at the time. So why start another troop? The mother of the boy didn't understand or like the current troop methods. I have earned my wood badge beeds and thought I was following the spirit of Scouting. But as with any public position there are many aproaches to each task. So did the distric or council talk to me or the troop committee to improve the question area this mother had? No, they were more concerned with incresing the number of troops in there area. Its my understanding is the distric rep. yearly performance is based on creating on new pack and troops in their area. It has no consideration the number of scouts in each group or if in two ywears they lose any. As of todays date our distric has lost two troops and are on the verge of losing two more. Some of these troops were 30+ years of tradition lost. Is this happening in other areas?

[drhannon 10]

It has happened by our Troop too. About a year ago Council started a new Troop about 3 blocks from us. We currently have 12 boys and only get 2-3 Webelos a year. The new Troop I hear isn't much bigger than ours. At one time there were 4 other Troops is a 1-2 mile radius of us, now there are only 2, plus ours. The other 2 have folded due to lack of boys.

 

So I agree it seem like they only care about the number of troops and new troops. To me it would make more sense to build up a small troop than starting a new one close by, only to possibly have 1 fold in the near future.

[berkshirescouter 11]

Hi

I had a discussion with my district exec about this awhile back. His comment was he wanted units that would be around a while, churning new units as not the goal.

Paul

[OldGreyEagle 5]

here's a totally differnt take on the situation:

 

Unless I am mistaken, which is always possible. I dont think "Council" actually starts any troop. The Chartering Organization starts the troop, with some input/aid from "Council" but the Chartering Organization has to be willing to administer the program.

 

Now, from a totally dispassionate observation, doesnt the VFW, American Legion, Church, Elks, etc. three blocks down from you have the right to start their own troop if they wish? That would seem to be the American way as no troop holds a franchise to scouting for a distinct location. And the person who started the new troop, perhaps she didnt like the way you look, talk, the car you drive, any number of things that you cant control and will only drive you crazy if you knew. It doesnt have to be because she thinks your a bad person, it just is.

 

So, now there are two troops, sounds like you have an oprotunity to evaluate your program. Are you truly boy lead, what events do you do, do you do the events because its what the adults want to do, or do the boys plan the calendar? What is your advancement record, I dont mean do the requirements for the boys, but do you give opprotunities to earn advancement, are these advancements recognized? Could that process be improved?

 

You mention your school has 900 students. Unscientifically you should have about 450 boys, if this is an elemetary school with 5 grades, that means on the average of 90 boys in a grade, and you say you are getting 4-6 new scouts a year, thats about 5 percent of the availible youth from one grade. If its an 8 grade school that about 50 per grade and you are getting 10 percent of your availble youth from one grade. Can you think of ways to recruit new boys? How strong is your Pack? Could they use help on School Night, could they use Den Chiefs? do you attend school night?

 

You are now faced with something American Business calls competition. You have an opportunity to make yourself better and make yourself the most attractive unit to the graduating Weblous and to the non-Cub scout demographic. Just because a boy wasnt a Cub Scout doesnt mean he might not like Boy Scouts, maybe nobody asked him. Get everyone, or at least as many of your leaders as possible trained. Follow the Program. Push yourself to be the best possible unit.This will have one of two effects. The other troop will fold, because yours is so neat, no one wants to go to the "other" place, or the other troop will try to outdo you. They may try to make their program even beter than yours which means you have to improve yourself again. If both troops maintain themsleves and attract boys and both give an excellent program, just who loses? I know your community will win with two dynamic troops. And if all the energy it will take to do this saps both troops, perhaps after a few years a merger will need to take place and only one troop will remain, but a much stronger and vibrant organizaiton than you have now. (you may have a wonderful organizaiton now, it will just become better by necessity)

 

Bottom line is you can complain about the competition or you can meet it head on,

 

I realze I know nothing about your situation, and maybe all I have said is way off target, but I think at least some is food for thought.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Bob White 20]

OGE is pretty near right on the money!

 

Bob white

[CubsRgr8 10]

I have a slightly different take on your situation. Since there are so many ways of delivering the program, make sure that boys are able to easily see how your troop is different from the other troop. Go to a different summer camp during a different month. Meet on a different night of the week. Emphasize different troop activities. Camp more (or less) often. Cabin camp instead of tent camp. Etc, etc. How will you know what is different? Talk to the other troop's leaders. Coordinate your efforts with the mutual goal of offering programming that appeals to different sets of boys. Our goal as leaders should always be to provide scouting to as many boys as possible.

[bt01 10]

Is the Distric/Council trying to become a Quality District or Council?? If they are they have to show grow in units andmin members.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I agree with most of what OldGreyEagle said. This is a minor point, but it is my impression that the "council" does sometimes initiate the formation of a new unit by trying to "sell" the program to a prospective chartered organization. In fact, I thought that was part of the job of a DE, usually when there are "gaps" in a particular area. I have never actually seen this happen (that I was aware of), but that is probably because I have always lived in areas where there were enough units that every boy was getting the opportunity to join and recruitment efforts were reaching every boy. (Well, almost always, but that's a subject for another day.)

 

Of course, units are formed in many other ways as well, and the DE "cold call" approach is not what happened in the situation that started this thread. Someone wanted to form a new troop, went to council and asked for help. I assume that any DE fielding that request would proceed to assist her, rather than trying to persuade her not to, so that the existing unit can retain its recruiting advantage.

 

As for whether "numbers and money" are overemphasized in Scouting, that is an interesting subject and always makes for a lively debate, but others have not taken the bait so I won't either. Except to repeat that it is indeed part of the DE's job to encourage formation of new units, which seems like a good thing. However, I assume DE's are also "graded" on recharters (and numbers of boys), so I don't see how it would benefit a DE to have a new unit charter while another one folds. Unless there is a formula that is "weighted" in a way that I don't know about.

[evmori 11]

I agree with most of what OGE posted.

 

I do think the professional Scouters are concerned with the numbers. After all, that is part of their job. At the unit level, we should be concerned with delivering a quality program regardless of the numbers.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[k9gold-scout 10]

Our troop has over 60 scouts and just a few blocks away is another troop with more than 40 scouts. Both troops were started 50 years ago by the same scoutmaster. (For some reason scouting is popular in our little courner of the world.) For good or bad the paid DE's are judged on new # and

FOS money. For each DE there can be over 40 scouters who make the program work, many put in long hours and dig into their own pocket when scouts need equipment or supplies. Troops come and go even 50 years+ units. The leadership of the scoutmaster is the reason a troop will flourish or fail. Other factors will either help or hinder but the scoutmaster sets the course of the troop. A scout, after a few years, will have friends in other troops and will move if he is not happy with his own troop.

Outdoor activities along with living the scout oath and law will keep scouting going.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Ed Mori says:

 

At the unit level, we should be concerned with delivering a quality program regardless of the numbers.

 

Obviously a good program is the key, but at the same time, I think units are encouraged to give attention to the numbers as well. One of the requirements for the Quality Unit Award (it may be optional) is that you are rechartering with at least the same number of boys as last year. (I have never seen the troop Quality Unit requirements, but this is on the list for packs, and I can't see why it wouldn't be for troops.)

 

Now, some might say, run a good program and the numbers will take care of themselves. But I don't think that is all of what we are being asked to do. We are also being asked to recruit, AND to retain the recruits by having a good program. (And to have a good program for its own sake, but that is an intangible that can't be easily quantified on a Quality Unit form.)

 

Also, the fact is that just a couple of weeks ago, I personally was asked to "worry" about the numbers, and I mean somebody else's numbers. I was at a roundtable and was discussing the district's spring Tiger recruitment efforts with our new DE, and one of the commissioners was standing by. Through a miscommunication between the council office and our Cubmaster, no flyers had gone out in our local school to the kindergarten boys (next school year's Tigers)and so we had missed the intended date for the roundup meeting. I said, well, we can get the new Tigers in the regular fall roundup. The DE and commissioner said, almost in unison, No, we really want to do it now. And then the commissioner turned to the DE and said "because we get reviewed on our numbers as of June 30." And so I said, fine, and in the ensuing conversation I committed us (meaning me, since the CM is going out of town tomorrow) to do a roundup meeting before our last pack meeting of the year on Friday. (This also means I am running the pack meeting, for the first and hopefully the last time.)

 

I have no problem doing the roundup, though I do question whether many of the boys we are recruiting are really ready to be in a Scouting program. But national says they are, and on this (as with almost every other issue) I happily defer to the wisdom of national, council, and district. But I do find the commissioner's comment amusing, and revealing. He didn't say to do a spring roundup because studies have shown that kindergarten boys who register in the spring have longer or happier tenures in Scouting than those recruited in the first grade. (I don't know if there are any studies like that.) He didn't say to register the boys now so they have a chance to participate in the pack's summer activities, which would have been a reasonable thing to say. He said to register the boys now in order to boost the June 30 numbers so the DE (and council, commissioners, whoever) can get credit for them this year. (He wasn't talking directly to me, but he wasn't whispering in the DE's ear, either.)

 

I am not at all offended by this, but it does lend credence to suspicions that many Scouters have about what is uppermost on the minds of at least some people above the unit level.

[Bob White 20]

You are right NJ, what is uppermost on the minds of scouters outside of unit scouting is the growth of the program.

 

Bringing the scouting movement to more scouts every year. That takes more units, more activities, more volunteers, more new boys recruited and more money raised. Thats what we do as district and council volunteers. It is no more and no less important to scouting than the work done at the unit level.

 

Bob White

[Mike Long 10]

Has scouting become a business for numbers / money?

 

In my view, No.

 

Numbers are a good way of judging the health of anything. The higher the numbers the higher the likelyhood that things are going well. This is a common and accurate method of judging effectiveness.

 

I also don't see anyone getting wealthy off of scouting. Certainly not any DE I have ever seen. Frankly the only well-off Pro Scouters I have met were well-off because they retired from very successful careers and could now afford the pay cut to be Pro Scouters.

[eisely 13]

It is naive to think that numbers don't matter. For those of us operating at the unit level, it may seem sinister, but I like the idea of DEs out there promoting the program and being measured to at least some degree on their success. It is a sad comment, however, when any organization, be it a business, a scout council, a church, a school, or whatever, becomes totally numbers driven. Non profit organizations are more susceptible to this than ordinary businesses, IMHO. There was big scandal in the late 60s or early 70s in scouting in the Chicago area when people were falsifying numbers and pumping them up just to meet quotas. Sounds kinda like Enron, only we expect more of scouting.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

BobWhite says:

 

You are right NJ, what is uppermost on the minds of scouters outside of unit scouting is the growth of the program.

 

You surprise me, BobWhite, by twisting my words and meaning. You know that is not what I meant. I expect such gamesmanship from some in this forum, but not from you.

 

What this particular commissioner had uppermost in his mind at the moment in question was not the growth of the program -- it was getting credit for numbers. The boys in question (who are still hypothetical for another 18 hours as I write this) will get the program regardless of whether they are registered before June 30, but whoever gets credit will not get credit for this year unless they do. That is what the commissioner was concerned about, and I can't imagine that he is the only person who thinks that way.

 

As I said before, I am happy to accomodate my DE and commissioners, they are a good group of guys and have been nothing but helpful to my pack, which has undergone a rocky transition from one group of leaders to another. I also see the benefit of signing these boys up as soon as possible. None of this changes the fact that it has been confirmed to me that there is a motivation at work here other than (or in addition to) the growth of the program.