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LongHaul

Webelos to Scout Transition when to Start

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This has been a very interesting topic to me. What are some practical ways you would start treating the Webelos with more responsibility.

 

Would you start teaching the patrol method to W1?

Camping away from adults?

Meal planning?

 

I have a son that is a first class scout and a son that will be a Webelos next year. I have to watch myself and not put too much on my Webelo.

 

Thanks

 

Fullquiver

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Yes, Webelos should start the transition when they become first become Webelos. That is the point of the Webelos program. However, you should NOT start treating Webelos like Boy Scouts. They are NOT Boy Scouts. They are still in the Cub Scout program and the "Guide to Safe Scouting" rules for Cub Scouts & Webelos Scouts apply, NOT the rules for Boy Scouts.

 

Webelos do NOT work in patrols. A patrol is a Boy Scout concept. If the Webelos choose it, they can wear a DEN Emblem. Although they are the same patches as the Boy Scouts wear, they are NOT called PATROL Emblems.

 

Webelos do NOT use the Boy Scout sign when all around them are using the Cub sign. They are not Boy Scouts. They are LEARNING the Boy Scout sign, along with other Boy Scout things, but they are still Cub Scouts & should be using the Cub Scout sign for all flag ceremonies, Pack meetings, etc.

 

When Webelos camp, even with BS Troops, their parents should be camping with them. They can camp without the rest of the Pack, but they are NOT to camp without parents. They should also NOT be doing Boy Scout requirements when camping with a Troop. Working on their Webelos Activity pin requirements is fine, but NOT Boy Scout level stuff.

 

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Scoutnut,

What is the problem with teaching the patrol method to Webelos? If you call it a den or you call it a patrol has no bearing on what is being taught. I fully agree that Webelos are not Boy Scouts and should not be treated as Boy Scouts and that age appropriate guide lines are to be maintained. Don't rush the boys, let them be Webelos Scouts now and Boy Scouts when their time comes. The patrol method however is a concept, a group dynamic, not a property of the Boy Scout Program. Venturing uses it, Exploring uses it, I'd say Ships use it in one form or another. Teaching the Webelos I DEN to begin thinking of themselves as a single unit and not 8 individuals grouped together is part of the Webelos Program.

Only because we are such sticklers for exact wording and detail I point this out. You go one to say that Webelos "are NOT to camp without parents." I think if you read the GTSS carefully you'll see that not necessarily the case. A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips. It's recommended that there be a one to one relationship between adult and scout but It's not a rule. The rule is 1 to 5 with each scout being the specific responsibility of a specific adult. In that case I should know where my five boys are at all times, and would be in a position of adult supervisor to all the other boys as well. So many rules are written to allow for the exception and so that we dont have to deny participation to any scout but we can if we choose.

LongHaul

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"The rule is 1 to 5 with each scout being the specific responsibility of a specific adult."

 

Can you please give me the BSA reference for this rule & where it states it applies to Webelos?

 

Thanks!

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Scoutnut,

         First your local Council has the authority to tighten this rule. Your local Council can in fact require a 1 to 1 ratio but it must be done at the Council level. An individual Pack can require a 1 to 1 ratio but neither can go higher than 5 to 1. As for National policy I first refer you to the Youth Protection Training material revised 2004 which states that a 1 to 5 ratio must be maintained. As for this applying to Webelos how could it not unless other restrictions place tighter restraints on participants. Where most have a problem is reading what is actually written without injecting our view point. While I agree a one to one ratio is the best and should be strived for it's not a hard rule. Remember the GTSS has reportedly been totally rewritten and should be available at local Scout Shops soon. Everything may change when that happens. What the Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders 13-33640 2005 printing says on this is ( I will use bold type for actual publication wording and regular type for my comments and explainations) Be sure participants understand that this is a parent-and-son event and every Webelos Scout must have a parent (or other adult) accompanying him on the overnight campout. The parent-and-son event reference makes us think of one to one but what if I have two sons or three or four. I can be there with more than one son and still fall under the parent-son event guideline. Each parent has a share of responsibility in planning and carrying out the campout. This is where the curve comes in. If a parent or guardian is unable to attend, the family should make arrangements with another adult family member or with the parent of another Webelos Scout (but not the Webelos Leader) to accompany the boy. At all times, a boy must be under the direct supervision of an adult. If the parent of another Webelos Scout can act as the adult for a scout in addition to their own son and no limit is placed on the number of additional scouts then the 1 to 5 rule comes into effect. The concept is to get a one to one ratio but not to force a Pack to deny participation to a boy whose parent can not attend.

 LongHaul

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"As for National policy I first refer you to the Youth Protection Training material revised 2004 which states that a 1 to 5 ratio must be maintained."

 

I have just redone (April, 2006) my Youth Protection training with the current materials. NOWHERE in the YPT does it mention anything about a 1-5 ratio. It mentions 2-Deep & no 1 on 1, but NOTHING about a ratio of 1-5.

 

Many Councils will have a 1 adult for every 5 youth ratio for COUNCIL EVENTS. For all Cub Scouts, including Webelos, the RULE for camping/overnights, as it is written in the "Guide to Safe Scouting", & as you yourself have noted in bold print, is -

 

"In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult."

 

This means that the BSA RULE for PACK & DEN camping/overnighters is that each Cub Scout attend with their own parent/guardian. The EXCEPTION would be if a parent/guardian can not attend with their child & gives another family member or adult permission to be responsible for their son.

 

If you want to use the 1-to-5 ratio, that would be a "worst case" senerio for a Pack or Webelos Den camping outing. For a PACK or DEN level camping/overnighter (NOT council), you sure as heck should NOT start out saying you ONLY need 1 adult(not even a parent) for every 5 Cubs, if you get more signed up great, but they are not needed.

 

THAT is what I would call "injecting our view point" & NOT "reading what is actually written".

 

 

 

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Re: Webelos Den Overnight Camping, refer to page 21-11 of the Cub Scout Leader Book (I have the the 2001 edition, but I think it says the same thing in the current edition):Webelos den overnight campouts are parent-son events . . . In most cases, a Webelos Scout is under the supervision of his own father, mother or guardian.Another quote from page 33-4:Webelos Scout overnight campouts introduce the boy and his parent or guardian to the basics of the Boy Scout camping program . . . In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian.I don't see any mention of a 5-to-1 ratio; I suspect this comes from the National Standards for day camp chaperones, but I can't swear to that because I've never been to National Camp School.

 

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Scoutnut,

First, I stand corrected, after reviewing my copy of the YP tape I see that you are indeed correct. The 1 to 5 is a local council rule and I am so used to reciting it I thought it was in the "ten point" section of the tape.

As to the RULE for Cub camping we need to establish a definition of terms. Saying "x" is the rule and "y" is the accepted exception to that rule means that "y" becomes the line which can not be crossed and there fore the actual "policy" rule or guideline or law. It's the line that can not be crossed that is the issue not the line we all wish we could maintain.

I would never want to hold a den meeting without another adult present but unfortunately that's not the "rule", two deep leadership is only the rule for outings, not meetings. One adult and at least two scouts is permitted. I accept that telling parents that one to one is not necessary is kinda like shooting yourself in the foot but telling them that National requires a one to one ratio is the same as telling them that wearing the uniform while traveling is required for insurance purposes.

LongHaul

 

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"telling them that National requires a one to one ratio is the same as telling them that wearing the uniform while traveling is required for insurance purposes."

 

 

Not exactly. Nowhere in any BSA literature, online or print, does it mention that the BSA uniform must be worn while traveling. The fact that it is BSA policy for Cubs to have a parent with them while camping is documented in multiple places.

 

It really is not that hard to follow this policy. You simply tell the Pack families that it is BSA policy that a parent SHOULD attend with their Scout(s) & that if the family runs into a real problem, where a parent can not attend, then they will be allowed to designate a replacement of either another adult family member or another Pack parent.

 

This does NOT mean one-to-one. This does NOT mean that a family with multiple sons in Cubs has to find an adult for each of their sons! If you have 1 mom who takes 3 of her own Cub Scout sons camping that is fine, & meets BSA policy. You have 3 boys who are each under the supervision of their own parent. However, if the mom or dad can't attend, but the boys really want to go, then the parents need to find someone else to take over the supervision of their 3 boys for the trip. I would suggest a Pack parent with only 1 Scout son & a BIG car!

 

Cub Scouts involves the FAMILY & Webelos are STILL Cub Scouts. That is how the program is written.

 

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"This means that the BSA RULE for PACK & DEN camping/overnighters is that each Cub Scout attend with their own parent/guardian. The EXCEPTION would be if a parent/guardian can not attend with their child & gives another family member or adult permission to be responsible for their son."

 

"It really is not that hard to follow this policy. You simply tell the Pack families that it is BSA policy that a parent SHOULD attend with their Scout(s) & that if the family runs into a real problem, where a parent can not attend, then they will be allowed to designate a replacement of either another adult family member or another Pack parent."

 

Scoutnut, I'm confuses. Are you talking about all cub scouts, or just Webelos? I thought it was a hard and fast rule for each scout to be accompanied by a parent or guardian on cub scout overnight family campouts. I've been insisting on it at our family campouts at a council camp per their regulations: "For camping--a parent or adult family member must be with each scout and the siblings of that family." In BALOO training, we were told that you could relax that rule when you have more scouts in one family than you have available adult family members, but not to have a scout supervised by an adult outside his family.

 

For Webelos, it seems that the Guide to Safe Scouting relaxes the above requirements when it says that "A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult." But I understand that to apply only to Webelos, not Tigers, Wolves, or Bears.

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mbscoutmom -- I looked up the wording in my copy of the BALOO training manual, because I was pretty sure ScoutNut was right. S/he is right. On page 21 of the Baloo training manual, Paragraph 5: "We introduce Cub Scouts to the outdoors through.....they enjoy...camping, and now, with a parent or other adult, pack overnighters. Paragraph 6 says: "Webelos Scouts take the second step in outdoor adventure by taking part in more advanced overnight campouts with a parent or responsible adult." (I guess the adult for younger Cubs doesn't have the be "responsible"??? :) )

 

In response to how many youth one adult may be responsible for, the Baloo training manual, on p. 20, last paragraph: "Pack camping activities are intended to include youth members and responsible adults. It is recognized that, on occasion, siblings and other family members may also be participating and that the ratio of boys to adults may increase. In all cases, each participant is responsible to a specific adult. It is up to the local council to set acceptable standards for this ratio."

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MaScout,

Now I'm confused, you say that you thought Scoutnut was right and looked in your Baloo manual and find that she/he is. Right about what? The original point of contention was his/her statement that Webelos are NOT to camp without a parent. The passages you quote clearly state that the only requirement is that they be with a responsible parent or adult. So any adult will do not specifically a perent and further more that adult can also be responsible for other scouts. The question now is how many scouts per adult? Yes it's up to local councils to make that call but what are the decisions of the local councils represented by the members of this forum? Mine is 5 to 1, what's yours?

LongHaul

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Whew! From what I understand...and I may be misreading it...mbscoutmom said it was her understanding from Baloo training that Webelos may attend with a parent OR another adult, but younger Cubs must attend with a PARENT or not attend. However, it IS okay for a younger Cub to attend with another adult. (Water muddy enough yet? I'm confused even if you're not! :) )

 

IN OUR COUNCIL, we are limited to a 5 to 1 maximum ratio, with of course never less than 2 adult leaders.

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Thank you, MaScout. You stated my question correctly. I don't want to make things harder for families than I have to, but I'll need to check on it with my council. We usually do our family campouts at Cub World at a council camp, and the wording seems very clear in the Cub World regulations: "For camping--a parent or adult family member must be with each scout and the siblings of that family." The Cub World requirements may be more restrictive than general requirements.

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