Rixkidz 10 Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 They just cant seem to agree. #1 den leader in 3rd yr,#2 quit, #3 & #4 joined after #2 left (they believed they were taking over, but #1 never intended to leave). #1 knows what to do and how to do it, but #3 & #4 treat #1 like she's dense...... It's been 6 months and they are still having issues that continue to arise continuously. #1 attempted to talk out the problems, and it now appears it only made things worse. #1 is not going to quit, #3 & #4 have threatened to break the den up, but there are only 8 boys and that would make the dens to small. ideas??? Link to post Share on other sites
TundraHawk 10 Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Rixkidz, does your unit have a commissioner? Maybe you can get everyone together w/the commissioner and try to hash things out. At least he/she would be a neutral presence that might be able to lend a hand or give you some insight. I can sympathize with your situation. My husband and I recently left a pack, somewhat due to all the internal fighting among the volunteers. Link to post Share on other sites
SemperParatus 1 Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Sounds like its all about den leadership, therefore I would look to the SM AND CC to help sort out the problems, before going outside the unit to a Commissioner. Its not clear who #3 and #4 are - it does not sound as if they are the registered DLs, but rather just parents or maybe ADLs. In any case, it sounds like it all began with a communication breakdown ("they believed they were taking over, but #1 never intended to leave") which has just escalated over time ("attempted to talk out the problems, and it now appears it only made things worse"). Until everyone (#1, 3, 4, CM, CC) sits down to air out the difficulties in an environment hopefully conducive to construction discussion and open communication this problem will only get worse. Any parties that do not wish to participate in this attempt to open the lines should be told in advance that the consequence will be removal from the program. If this thing is so far gone that it can't be repaired then a separation of the den may be the only solution left, in spite of the smaller size. Good luck to you, #1 (I assume). Link to post Share on other sites
Rixkidz 10 Posted February 1, 2005 Author Share Posted February 1, 2005 actually I am the spouse of #1 Link to post Share on other sites
EagleInKY 14 Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 I'm dealing with a similar situation right now. I've been planning to post for advice, but it still gets me too upset. Is there a person that can serve as a mediator? Perhaps someone that all three look up to or consider a fair and reasonable person. This could be another leader, a former leader, someone on the committee, etc. If so, have that person organize a sit down discussion. They should do their homework, so they know what the issues are from each side. I wish you luck. Scouting is too much fun to be spoiled by this kind of stuff. Link to post Share on other sites
PNScouter 10 Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Hi everyone, Have not posted for a while, just been lurking and absorbing all of your great posts. However, this topic hits home with me having survived a troop split six months ago. TH, EIK and SP have good advice, I would add that in our case a mediator was helpful. I would get a scouter from outside your program someone you trust, eithor at the council level or from another pack. Although it can be a highly emotional situation, it is very important to stick with the facts and remove the emotion. Yes, eaiser said than done but, this is the only way to resolve the situation with the outcome being whats best for the boys. Link to post Share on other sites
Joni4TA 10 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 PN - you're so right it is easier said than done about removing the emotion. It may be possible, maybe even after the initial blow-up, but at first, I have seen no other way than to be driven by emotion. People are driven by emotion for the most part, especially in volunteerism. If we're passionate about ourselves and our Scouting, it's difficult to remove that aspect of ourselves. Plus, Rixkidz said #1 was "She", and I am a female leader too; believe me, I am driven by emotion! I agree with a neutral body, or mediator and that would be the best thing. It's sometimes very hard to find one of those though when things get out in the open. Often there is a right and a wrong, and people are naturally not looking at the grey in between. I am still trying to understand why, if #1 is the Den Leader, where did #3 and #4 come from? Are they parents of other boys in the Den? If so, then they should be familiar with #1 being the Den Leader, right? Perhaps #3 and #4 could still be a wonderful Scouter resource if put to work outside of the Den. A Pack can always use good, dedicated committee members. However if #3 and #4 are interfering with the Den program I can see where that needs to come to a head and stop, quick-like. We have similar issues in our Troop and sometimes I think it has come down to "it's either you, me or the highway for one of us" kind of deal. Things can seem hopeless, irrepairable, and even downright petty. As much as you're driven by emotion that ticks you off, you can be driven by the emotion that you CAN make it work! Good Luck! Link to post Share on other sites
PNScouter 10 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Joni4TA, Yes you are right, the emotion will be there, but it must not cloud the decision making process. You will need to listen hard to the other side of the issue so you understand where they are comming from - this will require empathy. Once everyone understands the problem you will need to invent a solution or solutions to the problem. Then you need to resolve the problem by picking the solution that is best for the Den. Ok, does anyone recognize that three step process: empathy, invention, resolution? Link to post Share on other sites
pack524cm 10 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 I'm been involved in several of these issues over the years and I'm currently the Cubmaster that has 12 Dens and/or 98 Scouts. Your issues and concerns should be first addressed by your Cubmaster as that's his primary role. If he is not able to address the issue the item need to be address by your next Pack Committee monthly meeting or also called Parent Meeting. The Pack Committee consists of the Cubmaster, Assistant Cubmaster, Committee Chairperson, Treasurer, Secretary, and Advancement Chairperson. If this group can not resolve this issue that's when your District Commissioner gets involved. I've gone as far as to get our District Executive for our Council to address issues. Cub Scouts is basically a black and white issue. The scouts unfortunately are the ones that we forget about, as the parents need to check themselves in at the door and remove there ego's. I've assigned my more aggressive parents to projects in the pack and that has sometimes kept them to busy to be involved in the weekly den meetings. Link to post Share on other sites
Bob58 10 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Hi, just pulling up a chair before fixing dinner. Actually this is a perfect opportunity to get a Unit Commissioner involved. Put "leadership" on the agenda for the pack Committee meeting or the Pack's monthly / bi-monthly planning meeting & ask the commissioner to make a guest appearance. I won't hijack this thread & will try to post later, but Commissioners should visit every unit at least once a month. That visit should be a regular pack (weekly all dens) meeting, an activity (pinewood, blue gold, etc) or a committee meeting. (Roundtable, phone & e-mail contact are great support, but don't replace face time.) A well trained, experienced Commissioner is like a trusted advisor or counselor, don't be afraid to ask the questions. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob58) Link to post Share on other sites
Rixkidz 10 Posted February 3, 2005 Author Share Posted February 3, 2005 WOW... All great suggestions.. The history goes back so far it would take me 20 pages to explain it all.. at the same time I am fearful if I put to much information down someone from the pack might SEE it and know who I am... When the boys were wolves we heard both of our leaders would be leaving and we needed two leaders from the den OF 8 boys, two men stepped up to the plate #1 and #2. They really didnt know what they were getting into with 9 9 yr olds, but they were excited about being leaders and did an "ok" job.. all boys made rank, and had FUN! but boys will be boys and sometimes they ran a little wild.. Some of the mothers thought this was unacceptable. At the end of their Bear year #2 decided he had had enough and was going to hang his leader hat up and take over as the committee chair. He approached the 2 mothers and enlisted them to take over the Den.. WITHOUT discussing this with #1. Now we have two new leaders #3 & #4... they have not talked to #1 at all and #1 really isnt sure what is happening and awaits SOMEONE to tell him. #2 tells #1 that he was approached by #3 & #4 (we now know this is untrue).. #1 does not plan on quiting, as HE is TOTALLY into this scouting thing and plans to go to BSA with the boys. (He is even going to go to Woddbadge this year) #3 & #4 insisted that they be registered and listed on everything as LEADERS.. not co leaders, not asst leaders BUT Leaders.. The 3 of them had a meeting with the CC (previously#2) and tried to WORK things out and superficialy I think it was, but #3 & #4 really wanted to take over and push #1 out.. (the CM is useless).. and Actually the CC was all for breaking the den up, and he wanted his son to go with #3 & #4!?! #1 plans to mode on to BSA with the boys next yr, but #3 & #4 have already stated they will not.. So we are kinda confused as to why all the big mess if they plan on bailing when the boys cross over. #1 emailed all the parents that since the boys are going to be Web 2 this summer that they really should go to resident camp (the normal transition etc.) #3 was quick to jump in an say she isnt going camping and that the boys can go to twilight camp again, that they really dont ""need" to. It just appears to be a battle for him all the way... Right now the den is doing well, 8/9 of the boys have earned their Webelos, but there still is a attitude towards #1 and me. I see it, others see it and it concerns me that the boys feel it. She doesnt like me which is fine, but the whole attitude thing now is just driving me and #1 crazy.. Link to post Share on other sites
SemperParatus 1 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 So, if I followed all of this... #2 (current CC) is the source of the problems by accomodating #3 and #4, rather than deferring to #1 as the incumbent den leader. Although, it is not entirely clear it may be that #1, #3 and #4 are all listed on your recharter as Den Leaders of the same den. Is that correct? I guess what it comes down to is who do the boys and the parents in the den (the other six - let's call them #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, and #10) go to as their den leader? It sounds as if #1 is still running the den meetings/program and #3 and #4 are just on the periphery trying to act as leaders by undermining #1. I can certainly see where they can be lots of problems when one den has three den leaders that do not get along or agree about things. I guess that is why the BSA doesn't allow for multiple den leaders. Now, assuming the CM (#11) is useless as you say, and #2 is not doing you any favors, it seems you have several options: a. #1 can make the attempt to patch things up with #3 and #4 directly. Forget about the past and all of the baggage (I know that is very hard), and let's figure out how to make this a workable situation going forward. b. You can try and involve #2 and #11 in the process, although it sounds like #2 would not be an impartial mediator and #11 is still basically useless. But, who knows. c. You can try and go to you Unit Commisioner for assistance to help sort out all the problems, although my experience is that they really do not want to be brought into inter-pack squabbles. Yours is basically a den issue between #1, #3, and #4, while #2 and #11 really do not seem to be too concerned about the problem - even though they are precisely the folks that should be concerned with fixing it. d. #1 can put his head down, plough forward, act like a den leader, ignore #3 and #4 and focus his time and energies on #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, and #10. Eventually, #3 and #4 will be marginalized as leaders in appearance and may give-up, shut-up, pony-up, or blow-up. e. Pray for crossover to come as fast as possible. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2779 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Hi All Yep, Im with Semp, pray for crossover as fast as possible. Ive had good and bad experiences with Unit Commissioners (UC). It really depends on their ability to mediate. Not that many can do it very well and Semp is right that they would rather not get involved unless they are dragged into it. But since no other Pack authority will help, the UC is the next step. If that doesnt work, I would keep planning the agenda and sending it to the parents. In most cases the parents will go the route of the most reasonable adult. Make the agenda, if the scouts show up, great. If not, then look forward to the troop experience. I know it hurts, my wife and I had many sleepless nights. Many. Good luck. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
knottyfox 10 Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Tell them all to grow up and stop this foolishness! Remind them if this stuff was hard, they wouldn't let children do it! There is no place for ego's in Scouting! Ensure the baby adults fighting does not reach the boys! Knotty Fox Link to post Share on other sites
LPasn 10 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Knotty Fox, that sounds like a good idea. I think I can use that also. Link to post Share on other sites
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