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Can this pack be saved?

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Take the following leaders.


A Cubmaster who has been at it for 15 years, started with now grown sons and is holding on til his 4 year old gets old enough to join. He does not hold pack meetings. Advancements are only given out two times a year, Blue and Gold and at an end of year picnic. He showed up at round-up without his uniform on, just street clothes. He is trained, but it was back when he started. Actually stated to the full pack one night that if you had new leader essentials you could take your den on overnight camping trips. Does not provide new leaders with any of the manuals. Just says to fly the meetings from the boys books. He holds the checkbook, only one signature required on checks, and it's his.


Three new den leaders, registered last month during round up. These are the leaders for Tiger, Wolves and Bears. They want guidance on what to do, can't get it from the cubmaster because he has only shown up at two meetings since round up. Tigers have 20 boys, Wolves have 10, and Bears have 3.


First year Webelos den leader and assistant den leader who've been at it since Tiger year. Trained in leader essentials, plus did Baloo at Pow Wow this last weekend, so they can legally take the pack on overnighters. Bought leader books for themselves, because the cubmaster won't let go of anything in his possession. Have 8 boys in their group.


One second year Webelos leader who has been trained, and just wants to move on to Boy Scouts, tired of trying. Has one regular Webelos coming, and two that come when they feel like it.


The pack committee only exists on paper. People are listed as holding the various offices, I suppose because we are required to have a committee. Den leaders supposedly hold some of the offices and the cubmaster's on there too.


Is there any hope? How would you go about saving the pack?

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Danger Will Robinson! Danger! Danger!


This pack is in big trouble. Can it be saved? Yes. But only with some major changes from the top down. Where is the CO in all of this? The COR and the Committee Chair are probably non-existent.


Honestly, I'm not sure where to begin. I'd probably get a group of concerned leaders together first. Then approach the CO with the problem. You run the risk that they might blow you off or side with the CM.


The CM needs to go. Or, at the least, get trained. A real Committee needs to be formed. A relationship with the CO needs to be re-established. A treasurer needs to control the books. I could go on.


I'm sure you'll get some good advice from this group. But I'd be lacing up those running shoes...

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I'm not one that usually suggests the someone run to the DE (District Executive) to handle a unit problem, but this is one time I will.


Since this has been going on this long, obviously no one, the Chartered Organization, the CO Representative, nor the Unit Commissioner, has been paying much attention. What is happening here is not Cub Scouting. The DE should know who to contact to get this situation straightened out.


This is not an issue of someone who was trained a long time ago - this CM is not even following the training he received way back 15 years ago.


And it just might be time to start a new pack. You have the leaders and the Cubs.



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va-scouter, If you haven't already done so, check out the "Hypothetical Pack..." thread. Some of the same questions, and good answers. I feel your pain!


I amazed at how you were able to recruit as well as you did!! Even with all the chaotic non-program, the word's getting out that someone is doing something right! Feel good about that!!


There are others here who know better than I, but, I think, the right order to go is:











From the sound of it, you've tried, or discounted, several of these steps. Keep climbing the ladder. I can't imagine this is going to have a simple or pretty ending for you. Even if you are able to save and redeem the Pack it's going to require a Phoenix-like rebirth -- and you know what has to happen to the Phoenix first!


Good Luck!!


Tell us how it works out!


jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

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I hate when I read about things like this.

It would seem that not only has somebody dropped the ball, in this case the whole team dropped it and seem to have no idea where to look for it.

While I of course believe it has happened and is happening, because you have posted it. I don't know how or how come?

You need to find out if the other Leaders feel the same way that you do. If they do I would call the District Commissioner, the DE, the persons on the charter who are listed as the CC and the COR. Ask for a meeting. Tell the CC and the COR, that you would appreciate it if they would invite the Cubmaster.

Before the meeting inform the DE and the District Commissioner what you want.

If I were in your shoes. I would be asking for the Cubmaster to resign. The CC to step up and do the job. If he or she was unwilling I would explain that the role of CC is an active one and that the pack needs a person who will do the job.I would very nicely explain that everything would go so much better if the COR did become more active. I would let the District Commissioner know that I felt let down, by him and his staff and tell him that I demand (Yes demand) that he appoint his best unit commissioner to this unit as quickly as is possible.

At the meeting if there are more than one pack leader there I would ask one of them to lay out the facts. Just the facts. These being what you think is wrong, and what you think will make it right. Do not make any threats or issue any ultimatums.

If the COR agrees that it is time for the Cubmaster to step down, ask if the checking account can be turned over to him the COR. If the CC, is unwilling to continue ask if she will return all pack property to the COR. If you get all this - You will have done well. You and the other leaders should leave the meeting. Get away in a fast car!!

The next day ask the DE if she will set up a meeting with the COR, allow a few days so he can collect the checking information from the Cubmaster and collect the stuff from the CC.

When you meet with the COR,bring the DE, your new Unit Commissioner with you. Ask the DE to explain to the COR what needs to be done next.

Ask if he would be willing to sit on a nominating committee?

If all this happens you will have the makings of a new start. The people who are left will need to start selecting people to fill the posts that have been vacated.

The next few weeks after this has happened will tell if the Pack can be saved or not.


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First thing I would do it to GET TRAINED!!!! If you have to put off ousting the CM for a month I would. If you have your training you are much better prepared to run the pack with DL's until a new CM is named. Also the training my show you some other things that are being done wrong that you can correct immediatly. It will do no good to start replacing people unless you have trained people ready to step in for them. Have a volunteer or two take the Cubmaster training. Don't just tell everyone the CM needs to be replaced unless you can offer them a couple of trained people to choose from to replace him with.

Just my Opinion of course.



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Thank you all for your responses.


I knew from reading here that normally the CM can only be replace by the CC and COR on the charter, neither of which have shown any desire to do so. Wasn't sure what path to take to override them.


The DE was at our roundup (in uniform, thank God), so he is aware of the fact that the CM showed up without a uniform on that night. He's a relative newcomer, at least to us. He's in his second year with this council. He has also become aware during that time that the CM never comes to camporees or day camps, every other CM in the district does, he does not.


According to council calendar cubmaster training is only offered once a year, at Pow Wow, which was last weekend. So we've missed that boat, at least for this year.


All of the pack property is in the hands of the cubmaster, not the CC, just like the checkbook. She's just a name on the charter (the 2nd year Webelos leader who is tired of it all.) However, she did state at one time that if the CM stepped down she would take the job for one year. Not sure if she's still willing to do that or not. If not the first year Webelos leader has stated that he's willing.


Looks like the den leaders all need to get together for a long talk, get all the facts together and approach somebody who can do something about this mess.


Thanks again, please keep the ideas coming.

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Just to add to my earlier quick answer.


It seems clear to me that this guy just want to be the CM so that his younger son can see him as the big kahuna. Since hes doing nothing for the rest of the kids, I very safety assume that hes in it very selfishly for himself. There appears to be no doubt that he is killing your pack and getting in the way of providing a complete quality program to the kids.


Ill stay with my earlier suggestion to have him removed. I recommend that you do it sooner than later. You want him to clearly get the message that hes not wanted it he doesnt care about all the kids. Remember he still has a young son at home, I dont think you want him coming back to haunt you in 3 more years. Get him out of the way. I would not suggest waiting until there is trained leadership to replace him. Some of your leaders are trained, use them to help the new CM do his job. Theyll do fine!


Next. For now just ignore the guy, make believe he doesnt exist. Dont expect any input from him, and dont give him any. Schedule and hold your leader meetings without him. Use your Charter Organization to wrestle the checkbook away from him. Youll need them to have him removed anyway.


As for purchasing Leader books, it may be your tradition that the pack pays for training and books for the leaders, but that is not the case in all places. It would not be unusual for the leaders to purchase their own books.


Most of us sacrifice a lot to bring a fair and level program to all the boys. We sacrifice time away from our familys, and sometimes even expect too much from our own boys who are in the program. This guy's behavior hits a real sore point with me! GET RID OF THE GUY !!!


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This can work, but one thing not yet mentioned is this: how long is everyone willing to work at the change that may be coming soon? I know of a unit that wanted change, worked for change, got everything in order as it should be, but it was hard and the leadership was just plain tired and enthusiasm dropped as it headed into the next year. The result? Time for change all over again as leaders seek replacements, new leaders need to get trained, and everyone adjusts. It is very important that those involved in leadership want the change (better program, consistency, communication) or it won't happen and/or last.

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The Pack Committee operates the Pack, not the CM. The committee needs to start scheduling monthly Pack meetings, and then have them...with or without him. If he doesn't show up, have an Assistant CM run the meeting. One person should not have the power to derail the entire Pack program. Just work around him.

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