GaHillBilly 10 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I''ve got *another* question! How hard is it to run your own summer camp? Three weeks ago, my son''s troop was told they could pick their own camp, then given them 15 minutes to study handouts from 20 different camps and vote. The SM took half that time to tell them why they should pick a particular camp, which they (of course!) picked. As far as I know, it is a good camp, cheaper then the in-council camp and nearly as close. Then, at the last meeting, they were told that the troop had access to a large farm south of here, with hot showers, and that we''d be doing summer camp on our own, there. Keep in mind that the SM who has made this decision, is the same SM who has asked me, 3 hours before a meeting, to prepare a training program, and who at a recent meeting asked the PL and SPL, with no prior notice, to train the boys on several advancement skills, for which he provided inadequate materials. (Fortunately, I had some stuff in my truck!). He also failed to notice that one of the skills was one almost all the boys had checked off months before! My theory is that doing summer camp on your own *could* be a great opportunity, but that it would take a huge amount of planning and prior work to be successful. Given that advance planning is not these guys strong area, I''m guessing that we are facing a small disaster. My son is pretty upset to have this happen, after they ''allowed'' the boys to pick their own camp. As some of you know from my other thread [ http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=168816 ] I''m already considering moving to another troop. But we''d planned to wait till after camp. Now, I''m thinking it had better be sooner than that. Am I wrong? Is it reasonable to expect that these guys can pull it off? GaHillBilly Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Depends on the activities the youth want. You CAN backpack up the Appalachian Mountains for a week. That requires conditioning, and the kids need gear, but the biggest off-the-trail activity I remember was fishing. You''re too tired to swim Having the folks who can safely supervise and operate rifle range, archery range, and a pool means a certain manpower intensity. Do you have BSA Lifeguards? Enough to meet G2SS demands for unit swims? Daily? Can you plan to build Cooking MB in for a bunch of young men? They''re going to have to produce 27 different meals. I don''t know how big your Troop is, what the mix of ages and experiences are, and how many adults you expect to support an in-house camp. It can be rewarding... it can also invite a huge failure that sends youth away from Scouting forever. I''m not asking for back-story info; I''m asking you to think closely about the resources you have available. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 My theory is that doing summer camp on your own *could* be a great opportunity, but that it would take a huge amount of planning and prior work to be successful. Yah, good theory! Da only time I''ve seen this is with really strong troops that had a lot of internal resources. For those two units, it was a huge amount of work but the boys (and participant parents) really liked it and got a lot out of it. At least by the reports; never saw it in action (tried to visit once but got lost ). I sure wouldn''t want to be goin'' down that road without that kind of really strong unit. Now yeh can also contract out to other outfitters besides the BSA for camp - it''ll usually be more pricey, but it might get you new options or opportunities in your area. Kind of like what we teach in PowderHorn for crews. Otherwise, I''d stick with tried and true. For variety, go to a scout camp across country and add some fun touring along the way. Kudu I think has run his own camp or knows somebody who has or somethin'', if I remember right. Leastways, he''s sure to be the guy to yammer about BSA camp not bein'' properly historical or somesuch . He might jump in. Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
GaHillBilly 10 Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 Yeah, pretty much what I thought. This is a small adult-run troop, with the oldest functional boys only 13, and most 10 and 11. The leaders, fresh up from Cub Scouts, are long on official "training", but short on planning and follow-thru. A successful troop run camp, given this group, is pretty doubtful. Time to accelerate the search for a new troop for me and my son! GaHillBilly Link to post Share on other sites
SSScout 1615 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Just from the small glimpse of your Troop, I would advise going to the established camp this year, (summer'08) and consider CAREFULLY the idea of sponsoring your own summer camp NEXT year ('09) or later. * Planning * Insurance * activities * advancement opportunity * field trips away from campus *tents or bunk room or...* Standard equipment or personal * what does the offered 'farm' offer? * medical care * fire protection * stoves or campfire * sanitation* wood supply? * foul weather * etc etc. Back in prehistory when I earned my dinosaur herding MB, my Troop had a relative of a SM that owned some land and it became "The Property". We could camp there whenever we wanted. About a mile walk in from the main road, spring for water, creek for crawdads and trout, dug a privy, dead and downed American Chestnut (!) for fire wood. After ayear or two doing the overnight thing, the Troop fathers got together and organized a Summer Camp ("Camp Freedom") on The Property. We Scouts helped build a log cabin (a dad worked for the Telephone Co., all the creosote poles we could drag in), dug out and dammed the creek to form a splash hole, large Camp Fire circle, cleared four Patrol camp sites, , equipped them with formal fire circles, camp gadgets (splice practice), lashed together tables, poled tent frames, and for three years we went to the Council camp AND The Property. As I remember, the program at The Property was geared toward outdoor stuff, and at the Council Camp we could concentrate on the stuff we couldn't do at The Property (swimming, life saving, boating, canoeing, etc.). It was VERY worthwhile, but looking back on it, alot of parents took alot of 'annual leave' to make it happen. One dad was the camp Quatermaster. He was there all the time. One mom was the camp nurse. She was on us all the time to wash, brush, cook thoroughly. The Property was sold along time ago now, part is a religious retreat center, part is a piece of a local park, part is tract housing. I walked back in the woods there with my son a year ago and found the ruins of the cabin we built. No more American Chestnut. By all means, talk it up. You can "Do it Yourself", but it will be a lot of work. I'm not sure anyone in our present Troop would be willing to make the effort, even if we did have The Property to use. Sic Gloria Mundi YiS still....... Link to post Share on other sites
Scouting Mom 10 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 "Short on planning and follow-thru" You just answered your own question. If the SM can't plan or delegate the planning of a meeting more than a couple of hours in advance, than he doesn't have the organization skills to plan a Summer Camp. Link to post Share on other sites
GaHillBilly 10 Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 Hm-m-mh. Asked one question, but got answers for it, and another question I'd thought about, but hadn't asked. Question #1: Is it practical for my son's small troop, with somewhat disorganized leaders, to run its own camp. Answer: No way in h___! Question #2: Can it be worthwhile for a larger troop, with proper planning, resources, and organization, to run its own troop? Answer: Absolutely! Question #3 (implicit, but unasked): Do I need to move quickly, to get my son and myself into another troop, before we get caught up in the train wreck? Answer: Yep! Thanks, all. GaHillBilly Link to post Share on other sites
Aquila 10 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 It can work, and work well. But it requires a lot of parental involvement. The last one our troop ran by itself went smoothly. Pros: The whole family can come to camp. Okay, this might be a negative for some. We had the family camp on shore, and the boys on the boats. The cost is less. Or not, when you factor in gas and other little expenses. The food is DEFINITELY BETTER. I couldn't believe what passed for acceptable at our last camp. These are growing boys with hollow legs. A boiled half chicken breast, 2 cookies, and a starchy vegetable do not a dinner make. Cons: Boys are stuck with only those MB that fit into the specific activities. If you're on a houseboat for a week, there's probably not any riflery or archery. All boys end up following pretty much the same schedule. This is okay if they're all at the same level, maturity-wise. Paperwork. Ugh. Training and involvement. It takes a lot to get it up and running. We do our own camp every third or fourth year, just to keep things interesting ;-). We have a very high level of parental involvement, though. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Yah, Aquila. Interestin'. Since HillBilly got his answer, care to share a brief outline of one of your troop's in-house summer camp plans and how it works out for yeh? I'd be interested, having never seen one "live." Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
eolesen 10 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Ihe experience for the boys of meeting boys from other units, seeing how they operate, and the availability of obscure merit badges is one of the things that really appeals to me about going to a "real" camp, regardless if it is in council or not. I can see the appeal of having your own property to go to, but there's no reason you can't do both... We do an in-council camp and an out-of-council camp each year, and we never seem to have a problem finding adults to help make both happen. Link to post Share on other sites
GaHillBilly 10 Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 "care to share a brief outline" . . . Yeah, I'd also be interested in seeing that, even if though it's just for future reference. GaHillBilly Link to post Share on other sites
Kudu 186 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Accounts by those who find "Do it yourself summer camps" to be the peak Scouting experience for strong, established Troops: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/index.htm The 1,142 page third edition of the BSA Handbook for Scoutmasters has a very detailed "how to" chapter by William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt as well. Beavah writes: "Kudu...he`s sure to be the guy to yammer about BSA camp not bein` properly historical or somesuch. He might jump in." If you love cafeteria food, consider summer camp to be "a vacation from the Patrol Method," and your Wood Badge buddies all weep with joy to hear that your strongest Patrol Leaders step down so that you can teach less talented boys "how to be leaders," then this is not for you :-/ Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu) Link to post Share on other sites
onehouraweekmy 10 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 I am our CC, and have planned and executed two summer camps so I have some experience... ours is a small, cohesive troop (6-8 boys) and the first camp was great, everyone earned the canoeing merit badge courtesy of my 18 year old son/ ASM/ MB counselor. They all learned cooking skills; had lots of fun swimming and being able to run (can't do that at lots of BSA camps). Second year this last summer was also canoeing MB for a new crop of 11 and 12 year olds, and LOTS of TF, 2d, and 1st class advancement activities. Two older boys were a little bored, but also excited at getting to help teach the canoeing MB. 4H facility helped with an challenge course, and staffed swimming pool. Lots of planning, lots of work, but $150 cheaper than BSA camp, and much more flexibility. This year, I'm begging them to go to a BSA camp (hey guys, you can get lots more MB's at a BSA camp!), but they want to do our own. Thinking of getting our 50-miler done with a canoe trip on the James river. Link to post Share on other sites
mlg0171 11 Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Oneweekmy, Respectfully, I don't think the trip you are describing is "Summer Camp". Instead, you have a canoe trip that happens to be a week long, in the summer. That's an awesome trip to take, but you should also go to Summer Camp, which is a structured experience, different from other campouts. My troop ran our own summer camp twice (details in another thread http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=132845) but we structured it like a BSA-run camp. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 which is a structured experience Yeh mean an adult-structured experience? B Link to post Share on other sites
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