Troop Committees

[Rooster7 11]

I followed, and agreed, with most of you statements. However, I still feel it is not quite accurate to say the CC is third in command behind the COR.

 

You observed, "In no part of scouting does the SM have authority over the functions of the committee." Yet, the committee is not the CC. The CC does not authority over the functions of the committee either. He moderates the meeting. He has only one vote. Furthermore, there are parts of the program that the CC has no say over the SM. For example, in order to test Scouts, the Scoutmaster maintains a list of those qualified to give tests and to pass candidates (not the CC or committee). It works both ways. Also, when one reviews the committee's responsibilities (per the Troop Committee Guidebook), the words used in reference to the SM are "advices", "supports", and "assists". Nowhere do I see the word "directs" or any similar wording. I feel it is more accurate to say the hierarchy is as follows:

 

Executive Officer of the Chartering Organization

 

Chartering Organization Representative (which by the way, to my knowledge, can also be the executive officer)

 

Troop Committee*

 

Committee Chair/Scoutmaster

 

* I see the CC and SM as being equals. I may be wrong about the CC, but I'm fairly confident that the Troop Committee (as a group) has more authority than he. BSA is based on democratic principles, and it seems to be me, ultimately the committee (by majority vote) has more say than any other person or group, aside from the chartering organization itself. Unfortunately, I think many CCs do not run the committee meetings that way. Some become dictators; at least, that's been my observation, which gives folks the impression that he is in charge.

 

But, again, I have not read every BSA policy document out there. If you can point me to some definitive language that states otherwise, I would be appreciative.

 

[Bob White 20]

Since the Charter Organization head is responsible for choosing the COR and the CC, a much true representation would be for the COR and CC to be seen as equals. Any way you look at it the fact is the Scoutmaster is not the "head" of the unit. He or she is selected, approved and maintained on the charter at the will of others.

 

The SM has no authority over the committee or any of it's members.

 

The SPL is in charge of the troop. The SM's job is to train junior leaders.

 

Bob

[MomScouter 10]

Thanks for all the posts on this issue. Most have verified everything I had originally thought to be true. My son and I have decided to WALK to a better situation. We're still tying up loose ends with the current troop. Like you all said, this is supposed to be FUN! It has been a good learning experience at any rate!

[Bob White 20]

Best of luck MomScouter. I'm confident that you will find a troop more deserving of your son's membership and your interest in scouting.

 

Please be sure that your troop Committee Chair and Charter Organization Rwepresentative understand why you are leaving. Perhaps it will give them the motivation to seek a remedy.

 

Let us know when you find a troop.

Bob

[Rooster7 11]

Any way you look at it the fact is the Scoutmaster is not the "head" of the unit. He or she is selected, approved and maintained on the charter at the will of others.

 

Agreed.

 

Since the Charter Organization head is responsible for choosing the COR and the CC, a much true representation would be for the COR and CC to be seen as equals.

 

An owner of a professional sports team can select a general manager and a coach, but that doesn't necessarily make them equals.

 

Per the Troop Committee Guidebook:

 

"Each chartered organization using the Scouting program provides a meeting place, selects a Scoutmaster, appoints a troop committee of at least three adults, and chooses a Chartered Organization Representative."

 

By the aforementioned logic, all of these folks are equals. If you read carefully, the guidebook doesn't even mention the CC specifically as being a position selected by the Charter Organization (only under the umbrella of "appoints a troop committee of at least three adults"). One could reason none of the three adults selected would necessarily become the CC. They could decide amongst themselves or seek a fourth candidate. Furthermore, reading this guidebook carefully, it appears that the committee is responsible for recruiting and training only, not selection (this is true for all adult positions). In the end, the Chartering Organization is responsible for the selection of each adult position -

 

"The chartered organization must also approve all adult leadersthe Boy Scouts of America provides the program and support services, and the chartered organization provides the adult leadership and use the program to accomplish its goals for youth."

 

Of course, all of the above is splitting hairsyet, if there is a conflict between the CC and the SM, it is important to know who has ultimate authority. I contend that it is neither one of these guys. One has no more authority than the other. If a conflict should arise, and it cannot be settled amicably, then I contend that the COR or the executive officer are the only ones with true authority to resolve the issue. Could they defer to a committee? Could they defer to the CC? Could they defer to the SM? I believe they could do any of these things, but they would be explicitly conveying their authority to that person or group. It's not a given that one has authority over the other.

 

Maybe this should be a separate thread. Anyway, I find this "debate" interesting because I feel it is relevant to many troops. It appears that very often there is an undercurrent of conflict between the CC and SM because there is no clear understanding of "who's in charge". Not because either one necessarily wants to be in charge, but because the ambiguity feeds the conflict. I think BSA would be better served if they put out a policy statement (in the Troop Committee Guidebook or elsewhere) that clearly stated one of the following:

 

1) The Committee Chairperson has authority over the Scoutmaster.

2) The Scoutmaster has authority over the Committee Chairperson.

3) Neither the Committee Chairperson nor the Scoutmaster has authority over the other. If a conflict arises between these two, they should seek a resolution through their Chartering Organization.

 

I think, unofficially, BSA stakes claim to number three. However, as I have previously stated, I have yet to see wording in any BSA document asserting any one of these positions. They could save their adult leadership some stress but creating and stating such a policy clearly.

 

 

[ScouterPaul 11]

Well here is my 2 cents worth on this matter.

If you look at the BSA Adult Application your will see that the Signature of both the COR and CC are required for all leaders. This includes the Scoutmaster. This clearly indicates to me that the SM is fourth in line.

[FScouter 24]

The org chart in the Troop Committee Guidebook depicts the Committee over the Scoutmaster. That doesnt necessarily infer that the committee chair as an individual rules over the Scoutmaster any more than one could infer that the chair rules over the entire committee. As an aside, in many organizations the chair presides over meetings as well as having various other responsibilities. Power is not commonly bestowed on the chair. It is even common that the chair, as the presiding officer, has no vote on committee matters. However, by virtue of presiding over a meeting, the chair can make it difficult to present motions, or allow motions to come to a vote. Roberts Rules of Order talks about this.

 

In our unit, the SM serves for an indefinite period of time. There is no automatic annual review process. It is probably not a bad idea to address the subject every year or so around re-charter time, just so the committee and the chartered organization can agree that the SM is delivering the promise. Ive never found any BSA policy or guideline that talks about a required annual review of the Scoutmasters tenure. The book doesnt talk about removing the Scoutmaster either, but one could infer that the committee could recruit a replacement at any time, with the approval of the chartered organization. I would not agree with the assertion that the SM serves at the will of the COR. That seems quite pompous.

 

[Bob White 20]

fscouter,

The annual leadership review happens when your unit processes the Charter Renewal.

 

The Sm serving at the will of the COR is a fact of our program. The COR approves every adult volunteer in the unit. This point was covered in your troop committee training. The Chartered Organization owns the troop and selects and approves every adult.

[MomScouter 10]

Bob White, I am the CC! The COR is not the least bit interested in the troop and does whatever the SM says as far as signing things. I have tried to change things to be more like the BSA rules, but its an uphill battle and not one I care to wage. Other parents have dropped out left and right. There are plenty of troops around, its just a matter of picking one my son likes and I see is run correctly. I was CC in the pack for several years and the Committee did a great job, worked together well with the CM.

 

Great insights everyone, this forum has certainly provided me with a lot of ideas and advice.

[eagle90 125]

I think there is a big difference in who your chartered organization is as to the involvement of the Head of the chartered organization and the COR. In Units sponsored by PTA's, schools, etc. that I have been involved with, the Chartered Organization has ( and wants) little to do with Scouting other than signing a name on the charter once a year. In our case, they do not supply a COR, someone already on our committee must volunteer for the position.

 

And while all the books may say the COR and CC are higher up the chart than the SM, I would be willing to bet in most units the SM has the most "pull" on what the unit does and what unit policies are. After all, he undoubtedly puts in more time than the other positions, knows the boys better, and should be more versed in Scouting.

 

Like the grizzled old veteran who ran my SM training class years and years ago said, "Here is what the books says, and here is what really happens!!"

[Rooster7 11]

Could someone please point me to a link on the Internet that displays the aforementioned org chart (showing the CC over the SM)? I don't dispute it. I've just haven't been able to find such a document. Thanks.

[Bob White 20]

You can see a chart at Scoutmaster/ Assistant Scoutmaster Job Specific Training. it is part of the training program.

[Rooster7 11]

Bob,

 

You can see a chart at Scoutmaster/ Assistant Scoutmaster Job Specific Training. it is part of the training program.

 

I'm not sure what to make of your last response. Are you inferring SMF? If so, I have taken the course. I don't recall ever seeing this chart. Is there a link on the Internet showing the org chart?

 

[Bob White 20]

Scoutmaster Fundamentals was replaced a year ago by a new training program. You can also finds the chart on Page 11 of the Troop Committee Guide.

[FScouter 24]

Rooster - Just to be clear, the org chart shows the troop committee over the Scoutmaster, not the committee chair.