Great Advertisement for Scouting. . .NOT

[skeptic 992]

Oh, I also agree that we really need to start being a bit less confrontational about poor decisions and questionable skills, and more proactive in "learning from them". That might very well be something National should SERIOUSLY consider doing. It might very well pay off in spades.

[Basementdweller 608]

So this fellow was one of our hallowed eagle scouts.

 

 

this simply strengths the fact that an Eagle is just a patch.

[JoeBob 606]

Having gotten over my intial dismay, I would bet that these 14 year old scouts were brought up on GPS. What are the odds that 31 year old computer programmer William Sherwin had let his orientation skills atrophy in favor of a smart phone?

(Of course it would have been fun to be a bug on the trees at his OA Ordeal...)

 

I worry about our troops if/when China takes out the satelites.

[Gary_Miller 10]

T2Eagle, "Gary said its a good what would you do scenario, but we dont have enough information to really develop a good answer for that."

 

I disagree, while we don't have all the information, we have enough to get a good discussion going on what could have been done and what type of equipment to carry with you even on a short hike.

 

Assumptions could be thought out to the point of being able to determine what one may or may not been able to do, based on assumed knowledge, skills and equipment.

 

For example, we can assume that they had no way to light a fire because if they had, they could of made a big smokey fire in which those looking for them would have seen the smoke or the light from the fire.

 

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

We teach preparedness so that if you find youself in this situation you can spend the night safely if you have to. We don't teach self-rescue - and the number one reason why lost people get hurt on the trail is because they try to "self-rescue" and end up in a far worse situation instead of staying put.

 

Anyone with any trail sense knows you don't keep blundering down a trail once you've figured out you're lost. And taking a beeline reading from a topographic map might be a great first step but topographic maps don't show actual ground conditions - that small trail that is marked on it can be blocked by blowdowns, and that moderate slope could end up being a scree filled boulder field. Anyone who relies on maps as their primary source is just plain foolish.

 

"Also I don't think they stayed in one place, unless they kept the cell phone on and had the battery get eatten up by constant roaming.. They had reception and then lost reception, which might indicate they moved out of cell phone reach and were attempting to find their way out.."

 

Yep - it could indicate that - or it could indicate that they sat down on a log. Heck, my cell phone stops working well when I move from one end of my couch to another.

 

Were mistakes made? Yep. Was one of them calling to say they were lost? Nope - that is the smart thing to do. I don't think I'd trust anyone whose first instinct is to "self-rescue" in the mountains with any Scouts, ever.

 

Go ahead and ask you local mountain rescue team how many people they've pulled out of places that they've gotten themselves into then tell me it's no big deal.

 

JoeBob - with your experience you should know better than most that following a false trail can get you in a situation that will be hard to get out of. Heck, I've thru-hiked the AT from Maine to Georgia. Worked for Outward Bound. Worked for the BSA at Maine National High Adventure in the shadow of Mt. Katahdin. Climbed Katahdin many times. Worked at Acadia. Spent time in the Presidential Range, including Mt. Washington. Spents as much free time as I could climbing mountains all over Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont when I was in College. Spent time ice-climbing too. Heck, this is what I went to college for. Self-rescue, unless it becomes clear that no rescue is coming, is reckless for anyone - period. The people the mountains have taken over the years, even allegedly insignificant mountains, can attest to that.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Self-rescue, unless it becomes clear that no rescue is coming, is reckless for anyone - period.

 

Nah. I think perhaps yeh don't understand da term, because it's sort of a term of art in da outdoor community. First Aid is a form of self-rescue, when da treatment allows the situation to be resolved in the field. Backtracking your route is a form of self-rescue. Simply goin' higher until yeh return to the summit yeh just left is a form of self-rescue. Doin' T-rescues with canoes is a form of self-rescue.

 

In da BSA we teach preparedness and self-rescue, because that's just good citizenship, eh? Rather than relyin' on others when that's not necessary. Knowin' how to walk out is preferable to consuming hundreds of man-hours and thousands of dollars of resources. Self-rescue instruction is an integral part of any type of boating or other technical skill development. Heck, in da BSA, we not only teach self-rescue, we teach rescue!

 

Self rescue is also safer. I've worked SAR, and I reckon at least 3/4 of the active SARs that are resolved positively happen because da "victims" walk out under their own power or reposition themselves into da path of rescuers. Barring da use of enormously expensive resources and a lot of luck (like a thermal-imaging equipped helicopter and da conditions to make use of that possible), locating lost individuals who are off-trail and under tree canopy in da backcountry is extraordinarily difficult. Often it requires a lot of volunteer and auxiliary responder participation, and poses risk to those rescuers. I once participated in a massive SAR for a downed Lear Jet in da New England mountains. With hundreds of pros and volunteers. The aircraft and victims were found 6 years later by hunters. Off-trail, under canopy is just plain hard, even when it's an aircraft and not an individual.

 

Yah, sure, we're not expecting anybody to self-rescue from appendicitis in da field. Knowin' when help is really required and how to get to it is also important. But we should be more than just dependent lumps who can't manage to do anything more than operate a cell phone and demand someone else take responsibility for our situation.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

"Lord Baden-Powell", the reporter asked, "Be Prepared for what?"

 

"Why...to be rescued of course!"

[moosetracker 132]

I see both points of view.. Don't know if it is currently but when my son went through Tenderfoot thru FirstClass, the book did stress when lost to stay put, because many a child has been lost and rescuers could not find them because they wandered and so end up in a place already totally searced.. But even then, there was the discussion about figuring out direction and getting a bearing.. And discussion about trying to be in a place easily veiwed by air if not by land, shelter buiding, first aid kit and whistle, Fire building, keeping warm, edible plants (cell phones were a luxury rather then a dime a dozen at the time)..

 

So I guess there is lost and there is lost.. You have to make a determination how lost you are, or if you should try for a few hours on your own to find your way out before giving up. This might be a question of evaluating your situation, where did you get lost (the city park or Adirondeck Mountains) And what your skill level is for self rescue... Both are self-rescue, trying for a while to find your way out, then knowing when to call it quits.. And being able to find a visible spot to make a survival camp, and find ways to survive and get attention to help your rescuers..

 

Was it a few years back that a scout was lost and rescuing him became complicated because he was told not to trust strangers.. So even though he was lost, when a rescuer came close the boy would hide... GEEESSSHHHH...

[desertrat77 1144]

There is a standard boy scout hike template...it's basically the same since 1910. Check any old scout manual or field book. Plenty of opportunity for fun and exploring, but there are basic principles of hiking preparedness, skill and safety that must be followed.

 

The hike in question deviated from the standard from the get-go, by not having the right skills and clothes and plan. And continued from there.

 

Dependence on electons is foolhardy most days. Even more so in the outdoors.

[Basementdweller 608]

I would not sit down and wait for rescue. especially after only walking and hour......

 

I would pull out the compass, there is a road less than a mile from straightback due east.

 

 

 

[desertrat77 1144]

Basement, I agree. Scouts should show some initiative, resilience, and problem solving skills. Hugging a tree at the first sign of confusion beyond the age of 11 shows a lack of personal responsibility and judgment.

 

 

[T2Eagle 902]

Not that facts usually matter much this far into a discussion, but lets try to use some before we condemn these poor guys.

 

Theres nothing in the reports that say they stopped and waited for rescue as soon as they realized they we lost. It says they called the other part of the group and told them they had gotten off the trail and were lost. What should they have done instead? Not Called? And just let everyone believe everything was going exactly as planned?

 

We dont know what else they said in that call. We dont even know what is meant here by lost. Folks on the forum seem to assume it means we have no idea where we are and no idea how to get back. It could just as likely mean we just realized were not where were supposed to be but heres our plan for how were going to get back on track.

 

We dont know whether there were any other phone calls between the first and the last. We do know that the last phone call was made 4 minutes before sunset --- AND IT WAS NOT A CALL FOR RESCUE! That call was made by the other people in the party more than half an hour later, so it seems they were under the impression that the group was still attempting to get themselves out.

 

Then when they were found they were in a shelter they had constructed for themselves. According to one report, and Im skeptical about this but its what was published, they used Morse code to signal the helicopter hows that for old school scout skills.

 

For me the really big obvious miss was not having a fire. But what else did they really get wrong? Should they have remained silent about their situation and not used the evil cell phone? Should they have kept moving through the woods after dark rather than improving their situation by building a shelter and conserving energy?

 

Unless you assume youre so skillful that youd never get lost in which case all discussion about ten essentials and other preparedness is moot since you know youll never need them besides the lack of fire what did they do thats contrary to what we teach once they found themselves in trouble?

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

T2eagle,

 

Yes we really do need more details before making a thorough judgement. Unfortunately in today's fast paced, news saturated world, what we are seeing and reading is not good for the BSA. Unfortunately in today's world, perception is reality, even if it should not be the case. While I saw the news article about the shelter, and that's ok, the challenge I have is this, how long did it take for them to make it and could the time be better spent doing something else? Also never heard about the morse code. If correct,that's cool.

 

Also one article mentions a map and compass in their possession, and the one I saw didn't mention it. If they did have a map and compass, couldn't the time spent making a shelter be better spent figuring out where they are and getting out?

 

Again a more thorough report needs to be done. Hopefully someone will debrief them,a nd we can learn form this lesson.

[Basementdweller 608]

In the time it took them to construct the shelter they could have walked out.

[JoeBob 606]

Details:

 

"At 1:15 p.m., the three hikers left the main group at the summit of Straightback Mountain"

 

"cell phone to call another member of the troop at 2:37 p.m"

They got lost after walking downhill (away from the summit) for 82 minutes.

 

Civil Twilight at Lincoln NH on Nov 6th was at 5:02.

They had 145 minutes to walk back uphill to find themselves once again at the summit.

Uphill? Too much work, let's call in lost...

 

"equipped with some water, snacks, a map and a compass"

 

Morse Code?

Pilot One: "Ralph, do you see flashing off a cell phone cover down there?"

Pilot Two: "Yeh, that flashing seems to be too rythmic to be that bear that stole Ranger Bob's cell phone last week. Must be the lost Boy Scouts..."

 

 

What I guess I find most distressing about this thread is the number of Scouters who are trying to portray this episode as a victory for good Scout training.

Have we really sunk so low?

My vision of Scouting involves rescuing lost city-slickers through the implementation of superior woodsmanship.

Scouts should not be the butt of jokes about not being able to tell the difference between uphill and downhill.