Nightline - Boy Scout Tragedy (FL Everglades hike)

[SR540Beaver 116]

Interesting article about some atheltes who are in top condition.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/01/27/grueling-workouts-blame-hospitalization-iowa-football-players/?test=latestnews

[nldscout 18]

The thing here is not to get your shorts in a bunch. If you have ever read civil complaints, they all look the same, they all alledge a ton of things initially to make sure they cover everything under the sun. I have seen a lot and they all say the same kind of things.

 

It would be interesting to read the BSA answer to the summons and complaint.

 

 

[acco40 95]

Doesn't matter if I was a tub of goo or solid muscle. The BSA did not have a BMI or % body fat requirement, they had a weight for height requirement. A 5'6" 215 lb adult or Scout should not partake in backpacking in a BSA event - period.

 

I stand by my statement above, but maybe I didn't make my point clear. What I meant was that the BSA doesn't have a "how fit are you" requirement, they have a height/weight requirement. Right or wrong, that's what they have. So, if you don't meet it, you should not partake in the event.

 

I agree that there are rare instances of 215 lb folks who are 5'6" who are physically fit but that doesn't mean they meet the BSA guideline.

[nolesrule 58]

BMI is just a height/weight ratio forumula.

 

 

[Pack212Scouter 10]

It is worth noting that BSA says that those are "guidelines", but that care should be taken with those individuals. The Health form itself even says that Philmonth 'may' consider someone up to 20# over the guidelines. The guide is NOT a BSA rule.

[RememberSchiff 3662]

Guidelines.. may or may not, most are not willing to risk losing $$$ and vacation time over the uncertainty. So the worst case is assumed, and the guideline is perceived as a rule.

 

[Eagle007 10]

"If BSA says that those are just 'guidelines,'" why bother wasting the ink, paper, and headaches that people are going to get from all of the confusion. Why can't it be a clear cut, black and white, hard and fast rule without it being left up to interpretation by several thousands of people? Either these are the requirements that we're sticking by or they are not.

[Twocubdad 665]

And therein lies the danger of issuing over-reaching, restrictive regulations -- people evade or ignore them. Anyone remember the nation-wide 55mph speed limit?

 

According the the medical form, we are "stongly encouraged" to enforce these guidelines for "all other events." ALL other events? I suppose that includes troop meetings? Scout Sunday?

 

Is anyone following that recommendation for your unit?

[BrotherhoodWWW 10]

Acco40 I see where you are coming from. What does backpacking have to do with a day hike? There is a whole bunch of difference between a backpacking trip at elevation and a long day hike at near sea level.

 

I do not fit the limits. For years I thought that I should not be a SM because of that fact. Today I have a choice between giving the boys in my Troop the opportunity to have a Troop that follows the program or one that does not. I choose the former and am the SM. My CO supports that decision. I've thought about stepping down about as long as it takes me to remember that the CSE and Commish. Tico are shaped just like me. So is my SE. That leads me to believe the height/ weight issue to be just more bureaucratic feel good double speak. It is a fine thing to have a standard and for Philmont the standard makes some sense in that they have a standard, and exception range and they stick to it.

[The Blancmange 67]

 

I've thought about stepping down about as long as it takes me to remember that the CSE and Commish. Tico are shaped just like me.

Interesting. So a meeting of the National Key 3 must not fall within the scope of "all other events." Quite an elusive definition.

[skeptic 992]

Come on folks; get a grip. Many old time scouters are no longer able to do more difficult or strenuous activities due to age related things, as well as physical condition. If they are willing to accept that, and find younger, better fit leaders to do that part of the program, while they use their experience and skills in other areas, so much the better.

 

This "black and white" with no shades of "grey" is just not rational. Certainly the CSE and Mr. Perez have put in their time in other ways, and still have very much to offer still. Having met Tico, I feel confident that he is dedicated and will lean over backwards for the program and the boys that are in it.

 

Just my opinion of course.

[Pack212Scouter 10]

Come on people. The whole point of the guidline, at least originally, was to make you think about whether this individual should be doing a particular event. Some people below the guidelines shouldn't, while some over them can. Use some common sense and best judegement like Scouting has done for 100 years. It is a tool, like any other. One of the tennents of Scouting is physical fitness; getting these boys out, active and showing them that it can be fun. To get them off video games, and tv, and doing something active. If we restrict it to only the fit boys, then there is a whole world of boarderline boys that will never learn to be more than they are. It may be difficult to tell one "I'm sorry, but you can't do a 50 mile hike yet." But if his patrol goes out on a 5 mile day hike and has fun while on it, them maybe he will learn an activity that improves his outlook on fitness.

[vol_scouter 365]

CalicoPenn,

 

Hyponatremia in the span of one day would require either large quantities of water or large fluid losses (vomiting or diarrhea). The second does not seem likely (it would have been mentioned in a description of the events). To become so hyponatremic that one passes from over hydration in a part of a day that the patient dies is not impossible but would seem to be less likely than heat stroke. Since an over weight youth can sometimes over indulge in whatever he does, he could have drunk an enormous amount of water. I would certain want to question the parents and all members of the hike about any recent acute illnesses with emesis and/or diarrhea. He could have been an undiscovered diabetic who developed hypoglycemia. He may have had undiscovered heart disease though the clinical history seems less likely. Without an autopsy, it will be only a guess by any of the expert witnesses called by both sides.

 

The story is unclear as to the actual sequence of events. The way that I understand the events: 1) Boys got hot and tired; 2) Leaders take and extended break for water, rest, and to cool off; 3) After boys said that they were OK to go, the hike was resumed; 4) The young man has more problems and collapses; 5) 911 is initiated and CPR started. The 1.5 hour time I understand is from the first break to the call to 911. If that is the case, it seems that everything may have been done appropriately. If 4 occurs and then there is a time of 1.5 hours, I doubt that there is going to be a very effective defense because that seems to be far too long.

 

I hope that this helps.

[The Blancmange 67]

For anyone interested, here is a link to all of the documents filed in the court case. Most of them are decidedly uninteresting to read. Basically the case is in the middle of "discovery," and nothing substantive will likely be happening for several months.

 

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/florida/flsdce/1:2010cv22236/360854/

 

 

[nldscout 18]

Whats really amazing is so farthere are 182 filings of one kind of another and they are not even through with the discovery phase.