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fleetfootedfox

Adults staying up nearly all night

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No Gern I don't think that would be considerate anywhere. How does that translate to what the BSA says about the outdoor code?

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If a webelos scout wakes up crying for mommy or wets his bed, you are going to say the PL deals with that? Interesting solution.

 

Yah, yeh didn't say this was a webelos event, eh? It was posted as a troop event.

 

As a troop event, yes, I'd expect da older scout PL or the Troop Guide to deal with that. Seen lots of lads handle it with great care and dignity. And if they get in over their heads or the boy just won't listen to anybody but an adult, then they come and get an ASM.

 

But honestly, as the WDL, don't yeh have a really good idea whether this is goin' to be an issue for any of your lads? And wouldn't yeh encourage/insist on mom or dad coming out if yeh had that concern? So it probably wouldn't be you dealin' with it either, eh? It should be the lad's designated adult (parent or temporary responsible adult) under the Cub Camping rules.

 

B

 

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Beavah,

 

It also just so happens that the oldest boy scout with our troop on this camp out was 13 years old. I can hardly expect a 13 year old to get up in the middle of the night to deal with some sleeping problem of a 10 or 11 year old.

 

Also, one of the webelos is my son, and he happens to be a sleep walker, which was a factor in my not wanting to wear the ear plugs.

 

However, I tried not to couch the question with all these particulars, because I didn't think that the adult behavior was either more or less acceptable based on my personal circumstances as I am sure in the future we will be camping with and/or next to people who also do not want to use ear plugs.

 

It seems to me that if a person can deal with the noise of snoring, normal outdoor noises, the noise of people getting up to use the toilet, etc. and wants to not wear ear plugs, they shouldn't be forced to wear them just because other adults are being loud all night long.

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"It also just so happens that the oldest boy scout with our troop on this camp out was 13 years old. I can hardly expect a 13 year old to get up in the middle of the night to deal with some sleeping problem of a 10 or 11 year old."

 

I can. Just my opinion, but that's not an unreasonable responsibility.

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Sound like it is time to suggest BP's "Patrol should camp 300 feet apart" including the adults.

 

This would solve the problem.

 

 

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As has been mentioned, there are two issues here for me.

 

1. A Scout is Courteous. This SM and his buddies are definitely NOT being courteous. Treat others as you want to be treated, etc.

 

2. I wouldn't allow my son to ride in the vehicle with any adult who was up to 3:00 AM the night before. That is poor judgement and lack of discipline on the adult's part. He and his buddies need to go through The Risk Zone Training. There is no way these adults are going to be at their best, driving home with just 3 or 4 hours sleep. Find a new Troop.

 

"Don't drive drowsy. Stop for rest and stretch breaks as needed. Fatigue is a major cause of highway accident fatalities."

 

http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss12.aspx

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I would agree they are not being courteous. I would, however, disagree with your second supposition Brent. You don't know if they are staying up this late the night before they break camp. You don't know if they have completed Risk Zone training or not. These guys might be over the road truckers & use to driving on less sleep than you need.

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Ed,

And you don't know, either. Sounds to me like it happens all the time. I would guess it would be hard for an over the road trucker to be a SM, with their schedules.

 

I do know that lack of sleep has a cumulative effect. You don't "catch up" from lack of sleep with one night of 6 - 8 hours sleep.

 

In the Wilderness First Aid Courses we teach, we are big on scenarios. How about this one. SM stays up until 3:00 with the other adult leaders. Early next morning, Scouts are cooking breakfast. Tenderfoot spills hot bacon grease on himself, bad burns. Leaders need to get him to the hospital fast. Hopefully adrenaline kicks in and keeps the driver sharp. Even so, he isn't going to be as sharp as he would with a good night's sleep.

 

The point is, this is a totally avoidable situation (leaders being fatigued due to lack of sleep). There is no compelling reason for it, and in my judgement, they are putting the boys at risk who are under their supervision.

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Thanks, Brent. That's a side of it I hadn't really thought about. The weekend I'm talking about these guys stayed up til 3am and got up at 6am two nights in a row and drove home the same day. They aren't truckers, and I'm not sure why that makes a big difference as truckers fall asleep at the wheel and have accidents too.

 

When I was in college I once was sitting next to a driver who fell asleep on a major busy highway doing 70 mph after not getting enough sleep on a float trip. I may not be alive today to tell you about it if I had been napping. He started drifting into the median and I momentarily took the wheel. (Obviously, touching the wheel when somebody else is driving is not something I would normally do.)

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Ed,

 

We live by the Scout Oath and law and we lead by example. Do you really want to defend the boorish behavior and lack of concern for safety that these leaders displayed? Fleetfoot has confirmed that they were up util 3:00 AM on Friday night and Saturday night and got up at 6:00 AM and drove kids on 6 hours of sleep in a 48 hour period. You honestly don't see a problem with that or you just want to argue for the sake of arguing?

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We live by the Scout Oath and law and we lead by example. Do you really want to defend the boorish behavior and lack of concern for safety that these leaders displayed? Fleetfoot has confirmed that they were up util 3:00 AM on Friday night and Saturday night and got up at 6:00 AM and drove kids on 6 hours of sleep in a 48 hour period. You honestly don't see a problem with that or you just want to argue for the sake of arguing?

 

I'm not defending them. I'm just trying to point out that you need to be careful when you generalize that "everyone needs x hours of sleep or" because that isn't always the case. I normally get 4-5 hours a night & work a full 9 hour day and I'm not drained at the end of the day.

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