jethehiker 10 Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 I am reposted this as a new thread so I do not take away from original topic of "ASPL takeover" We are having a problem; the SPL who happens to be the SM son is not doing anything that is required of the position. We have already lost 1 boy and a good committee member because of lack of a good program and there are a few more boys who have made mention of leaving. When approached (over the past 3 4 months) the SM keeps telling us he will take care of it and will not allow us to intervene. After having an outside mediator (Who is attached to the Troop) come on a campout and talk to the SPL, we have learned that he very much enjoys Boy Scouts and everything that goes with it. We have also learned that he really does not want the SPL position. The problem is that his father (SM) has made it clear at a leaders meeting that he will not step down his son. Is it time for us ASMs to step in and fix this or are we out of line. We are planning to have another meeting and the majority is to force the SM to replace the SPL. Link to post Share on other sites
Chippewa29 13 Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 There are probably some issues there that aren't readily apparent. The SM may feel that his son needs to grow up and learn responsibility, so the only way he can do that is by being the SPL. The SM may feel like he's losing face if his son is forced to step down as SPL. There may also be some issues from home. The SM may be getting pressure from his wife to put their son in the spotlight. My troop had that happen in the late 80's. The SM's son was babied by mom all the time and whenever dad tried to punish him (he was a trouble maker) or do something to help him grow up, the kid would run to mommy and she wouldn't edify her husband and got him out of his punishment. The SM told me a couple of times that he didn't know what to do with his son because his wife kept "overturning" anything his son didn't like. You guys may want to have someone talk to the SM about other issues outside of the troop that could be causing this. Best of luck. I hope that this can be resolved with all parties benefiting. I think the SPL may be relieved to step down. Link to post Share on other sites
Weekender 10 Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 I agree 100 percent with Chippewa29, there may be outside influences that you are unaware of. We've not had that type of problem in our troop but one of the things I have stepped up to do is help the SPL learn about running the troop. I help him with planning meetings and as the meeting progresses I act somewhat like an executive secretary for him. I prod him about keeping on schedule, remind him in private of things he may have missed or forgotten and critique him regularly on his performance. I also ensure that he is included in the adult discussions when they deal with policy and activities. Maybe a mentor could help this young man come into his own in the position. But I think you would need to approach the scoutmaster/dad about the whole situation first. Link to post Share on other sites
jethehiker 10 Posted January 29, 2002 Author Share Posted January 29, 2002 Weekender you are right, however as one of six ASM's we were told by the SM that we could not get involved with the SPL or ASPL. Only the SM was to talk to them about these problems. Link to post Share on other sites
Chippewa29 13 Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 Six ASM's???? Do any of you want to come work with me? I'd love to have some that could relieve me of some of my duties. If he trusts you enough to have the title, then he should trust you with the duties. "Responsibility without authority is futile" Link to post Share on other sites
Weekender 10 Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 It may be time for all the ASMs to have a talk with the SM. It sounds to me as if he may be overstepping his bounds this time. I would never consider contradicting my SM in front of the scouts (except for safety reasons) but if I see something out of whack I think it's my job to step in. Think about the effect on the other scouts...that's what's important. Link to post Share on other sites
jethehiker 10 Posted January 29, 2002 Author Share Posted January 29, 2002 Weekender Thanks. We planned on holding a meeting the just SM and ASM's no committee or scouts. This thing as impacted all of us (Leader and Boys alike) enough. I know now what we must do. As always I knew I could count on fellow Scouters fro the correct trail to take. YIS jethehiker >3000 miles since 1977 and still treking. Link to post Share on other sites
FScouter 24 Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 I would have to say that as Assistant Scoutmasters, you are charged with assisting the Scoutmaster in operating the program. If you're not in agreement with the manner in which he runs things, you should work with him and make known your concerns and ideas. The Scoutmaster has the authority to run the program in the manner that he sees fit. If you are unable to get him to change his methods and still want to pursue it, then you need to bring up the issues with the committee. It would wrong for the Assistant Scoutmasters to step in and "take over". Consider too that the SPL is elected by the boys in the troop, not appointed by the SM. If the boys made the wrong choice, then this is a learning experience for them. If the SPL accepted his being elected, and now doesn't like it, then this is a learning experience for him too. The Scoutmaster has the right and obligation to remove boy leaders that can't or won't do the job, but he also has an obligation to help them learn their job and to become better at leadership. We'd be in big trouble if we yanked every boy leader that was not doing a great job. And we'd be in trouble if the Scoutmaster couldn't do his job without getting permission from the Assistants first. Link to post Share on other sites
jethehiker 10 Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 F-Scouter Yes I do agree with you "BUT" we are losing people ( Scouts and Leaders ) due to the SM's not fulfilling his obligation to deliver a quality program to all the boys. If I were on the outside looking in I to might think your thoughts. There are things happening that you would have to see for your self before you would understand. We ASM's are acting on behalf of all the boys in the unit, with some encouragement from some parents. We do not think he is a bad SM . He on the other hand is very qualified for the position (Believes in the program, Organized, good outdoor skills and enjoys having fun). But we feel he is not up holding his responsibility to all the boys in allowing the lack of a program from continuing. Sorry if it seems like we are stepping out of bounds but we have our reasons, and to will learn from this time. Link to post Share on other sites
FScouter 24 Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Your original post indicated that the SPL was not doing his SPL job. If you are losing both boys and adult leaders, then that sounds like there is a lot more to it than just the issue of the SPL. The SPL is not solely responsible for the troop program. That is the reponsibility of the Patrol Leader's Council, under the leadership of the SPL, and the guidance of the Scoutmaster. Have you done a troop JLT, or has the SPL attended a Council JLT? Has the Scoutmaster and all the Assistants been through Scoutmaster Fundamentals training? Have you involved your Committee? Or talked to your district commissioner? What is it you intend to accomplish at your meeting? Link to post Share on other sites
shemgren 10 Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 This a good situation for the involvement of your Unit Commissioner, Assistant District Commissioner or District Commissioner. The Commissioners are trained to help units through tough issues. Many times having a third party outside of the troop's leadership can be effective in solving interal issues within the troop. I would urge you to contact your Council Service to locate the Commissioner assigned to your area. I agree that training can also be effective, and your Commissioner can assist with setting up such training in your troop. The ASM's should not gang up on the SM since will threaten his/her authority within the troop. The SM is charged with carrying out the program the patrol leader's council plans and the committe approves. The ASM's are there to assist the SM is carrying this duty and to oversee patrol operation, interface with Webelos dens, guiding junior leaders such as the Scribe, Librian, Quartermaster, and other joobs assigned by the SM. An ineffective SPL can cause a great deal of confusion within the troop, since he is the senior youth leader. A troop is the top down type of leadership model, so if the top leader is drop the ball, the entire structure falls down. Scott Hemgren ADC Central Minnesota Council Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 It's sad when these things happen. Does the SPL need the position for rank? I wish I had 6 ASM's! I think the best thing the ASM's can do is set a meeting with the SM & find out what is going on. Having your CC their would be a good idea. Do this in a neutral location & make sure the SPL or any other family members are not present. The issue is between the adult leadership of the Troop. This way, you might find out what's going on. Good luck! Ed Mori Scoutmaster (wishing I had 6 ASM's) Troop 1 Link to post Share on other sites
jethehiker 10 Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 Thanks Everyone, We have done most of what you have suggested . Except for the part about getting any council involved (Leader meetings, JLT training and third party evaluation) We were hoping to resolve this on our own which is why we have not gone to anyone higher up. I do agree with " The ASM's should not gang up on the SM since will threaten his/her authority within the troop" but we feel we are backed into a corner at this point. And if something is not done soon there is a chance we can lose more Scouts & Scouters. And as for having our CC there , well thats another Thread for another time. Lets get through this first. If more detail is need I will try and make it upto the Chat on thursday. Thanks Again YIS jethehiker Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 Being a Unit Commissioner this would be my suggestion, and does not burden the ASM's with decisions that they should not have to deal with. The simple solution is for the Troop Committe Chairman, and the Charter Organizational Rep to have a private chat with the SM and set an ultimatum, and a dead line to fix the problem. With the number of ASM's in this unit finding another SM shouldn't be that difficult.... Link to post Share on other sites
jethehiker 10 Posted February 4, 2002 Author Share Posted February 4, 2002 le Voyageur Good Idea, however the leader we did lose is the COR and the CC's son is the ASPL, so as you can see this is not an easy fix. But you are right if things were different it would be the way to go, along with the UC as a mediator. Thanks YIS Jethehiker Link to post Share on other sites
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