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     As Is said so many times concerning YP reporting WATCH YOUR LIABILITY. If the "witness" starts making allegations she can not prove in court she can get into a lot of trouble. Parents meeting? Bad move. Did these two actually admit to intimacy? Being in a persons tent for a matter of hours is not tenting together. Kids spend time in each others tents and we don't consider that tenting together. Was our witness watching the whole time? Does she have "notes" on when the offender entered, when he/she left? Notes on what was heard during the time the two were together? Who knows what really happened in that tent? Voyeurism?

       For a CO to take action based on what it may have looked like is totally within their prerogative. If you represent me and it even looks like your thinking about doing something wrong I can take issue with it because you represent me. Accusing you of wrong doing in public is a totally different matter. As for our witness I'd remind her that a scout is Courteous, Kind, Helpful, and above all does not slander another scout based on supposition.


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"All it will take to destroy the program is for us to invest as leaders the very people who esteem the values so little."


Ideally, the chartered organization selects adult leaders with good character and values. If it develops later that a leader does not model the behaviors and morals we want to teach our children, the CO should replace the leader. BSA leaves leader selection to the chartered organization. I wonder if either of these two adults would have been selected as leaders if the midnight tent incident occurred before they were leaders.


They said they are "sorry". Are they sorry about the choice they made, or sorry about being discovered? I do find it interesting that this incident is repeatedly referred to as a "mistake". Sounds more like a premeditated choice. A mistake would be if he went to the wrong tent.

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The facts as described hardly warrant removal from the unit or from scouting. Did these adults err? Yes. Are we all perfect? No. I agree that all that needs to be done has been done. I have not heard anything that suggests that the physical or moral well being of the youth on the outing was actually harmed.

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My experience is that Council will be the most forgiving of all levels of authority. If he is a good scoutmaster who shows remorse let it go. If miss busy body lady keeps pushing it will come down to either he or she goes. Give her a map and phone numbers to other local troops.


Now if this were a couple venture crew kids, then this thread would make 8 pages in one day. And someone heads should roll!





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Am I the only one (through obviously biased prism) that thinks this thread stinks of double standard?


(1) I wonder why it was moved OUT of the Issues and Politics Forum, where it originated? Divorce pending, hooking up with another leader, fraternization on a campout... all that is just a "Camping & High Adventure" topic, instead of "Issues & Politics", because they at least believe the important parts of the Bible? (This is rhetorical... not trying to be too heavy handed on the moderator that moved it, but pointing out the inconsistency.)


(2) In that Forum, the very same people that are saying "no harm, no foul" in this thread, are horrified about who I might be sleeping with outside of Scouting, back at home? This was inside of Scouting, at an event with boys in the neighboring tents, and you want to equivocate about "whether their marriages were 'technically' over by the time they were messing around"?


Look, it was poor judgment, shouldn't happen again, but otherwise isn't an offense worth tossing the leaders. But the irony is just too much that some of the same people so adamant against the "immorality" of my "private life" are so quick to give this issue a pass.


And lest you think the "no harm, no foul" argument is valid... I promise you the boys in the troop have an idea what's going on. Even without knowledge of this specific incident, they are gossiping about "Mr. Jones and Mrs. Smith are getting divorced and hooking up with each other". When I was a kid, the Camp Director and Camp Nurse both left their families to marry each other... we never saw them slipping into tents, but I can assure you the camp staff got tons of giggles out of that, and so will the boys in this troop, by "filling in the blanks" with their own imagination. In the end, it might be a distraction, and it might not be the ideal role modeling, but I doubt any of the kids will use it as the inspiration to grow up some day and cheat on their own spouses.







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Scoutlady, welcome to the Forums!


You said:

"The best the SM can do is to call a parent's meeting to let them decide."


I'm sorry, Scoutlady, but the SM can do far better than calling a parents meeting!!!


The best the Scoutmaster can do is privately share his concerns with no more than three people: The Chartered Organization Representative, the Committee Chair, and (perhaps) the District Commissioner.


The Chartered Partner is the owner of record of your Troop. The Executive Officer of the CP, together with the COR, are the ones to make decisions. They may coordinate with the District Commisisoner, District Executive, and/or Scout Executive for advice. They may ask for information in detail.


LongHaul has this right. Spread this out in the open, a la manure on a garden field, and some lawyer will have a field day collecting big bucks. Without regard to BSA's liability insurance, being taken to court for slander or libel just isn't fun. If it comes out that the folks were slandered or libelled, the credibility of those spreading the manure may well be gone... forever.


If, as the Chartered Partner determines the facts of the matter, and applies its own standards of conduct to the service of leaders, well, that's why they volunteer to license and support Scouting. They may decide to keep one or both leaders. They may decide that one or both leaders should no longer serve Troop ABC. They may decide to ask the Council to revoke memberships.


On a practical level, going forward, there is a commonsense guideline to apply: Adults who are not married to each other just do not enter someone of the opposite genders' tent.

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"I wonder why it was moved OUT of the Issues and Politics Forum, where it originated?"


I moved it out of Issues & Politics because the thread topic does not involve God, religion, politics, homosexual topics, or subjects unrelated to Scouting. Should the discussion turn in those directions it may be moved back. If someone wants to change the original topic, a spin-off is better than a highjack.

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"Should both leaders be kicked out of Scouting?"

I don't know.

As others have posted what happens next should be up to the CO.

Maybe I'm showing my age, but personally, after a day of trying to keep up with a group of teenagers I'm way too tired for a night of wild love making.

I would hope the people selected to lead our youth would do their best to act as role models for the youth we serve.

While of course this male leader might well have been going to help this female leader un-stick the zipper on her sleeping bag? I'm not sure if both of them used good sense?

Of course the non-leader parent who is snooping around at 0300? Seems to have made up his/her mind what was going on.

I can't help thinking that I'd have found a good time and place to have a word with both leaders and had a heart to heart with them about what is and what isn't acceptable at Scouting events.



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Yah, let me echo OGE, FScouter, LongHaul and others just to reinforce the point...


This is NOT something you take to a parents' committee meeting, EVER.


Straight to da COR/IH, in private. CC, COR, and IH have coffee with the parties involved.


CO makes a decision based on its moral position about these things. My guess for most churches is that forgiveness is more likely in the face of genuine remorse, and now that one of the two has left the program, there is no worry about "leading into temptation." But it's da CO's call. BSA will almost always follow the CO's lead.




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Parents really have no say in the running of the troop. As others have said, this is an issue for the CC and COR and maybe the SM if the person in question is an ASM.


However, we really need to wonder what sort of incredible bad judgement did these two show and is this normal for them. I'd expect it from a couple of teenagers or even lovestruck 21 year olds but i'm guessing these two are beyond that point in their lives. Couldn't they go a night without snuggling?

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I would have to ask my self if this persons continued participation would be a positive or negative pull on the troop. That would determine their role in the future of the troop.


BTW: I assure you that by now, most/all the boys know about it.


Note to scoutlady105: keep in mind as you post that topics here never go away and the world is a small place. I have found that I have met some of the folks who post here in the past.

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What does this have to do with YP?


It seems both adults made a bad decision & they have admitted that. Was this decision bad enough to boot them both from Scouting? I don't think so. What does the COR say? It's kinda up to them.


Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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