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You are a poor converstionalist who apparently likes to twist and convolute other people's statements in order to prolong a question that was long ago answered. Oh come on Bob, you shouldnt lower yourself to cheap shots just because you cant support your point, thats not the Bob White expert regulator we all know and love. The answers to your question, when you actually have a direct question, are in the manuals of the BSA, I invite you to read one, any one. Nope, you simply cant support your point well enough to answer my questions because they are based directly out of the Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws, Federal Charter, SM, Committee, Scout and Requirements manuals and handbooks. Ive read them all cover to cover and challenge you to simply support your points with direct references instead of personal interpretations. In them you will find the answer, which I guarantee you will not like because it will not match your personal opinion. My personal opinion is not involved period! Ive found all the cites, quotes and facts that apply and you cant challenge it without introducing irrelevant interpretation, cant you just admit youre wrong for goodness sake? I am no longer interested in the bait you are dangling on your twisted hook. I take comfort in knowing the fish is keener than the fisherman. What ever that means, I wish you no ill will and for the record agree with most of your positions. I hope you can give some serious consideration to the subject before you raise the issue again.

 

 

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OK, DedicatedDad, let's recap here: I asked you what "values" are violated by hair that is long or pink (seldom do you see both), earrings (by which I mean simple stud earrings, not hoops or baskets of fruit or anything like that)or makeup. You responded with such things as humility, modesty, etiquette and a few others. Before I respond to your response, though, I realized that I need to clarify my question.

 

So please answer these:

 

1. In your world, do "values" and "moral values" mean the same thing. Or, put another way (I guess this is question 1B), are humility, modesty, and the other things you mentioned, moral values?

 

2. Is it immoral for a teenage boy to have long hair? Pink hair? Earring? Makeup?

 

I also noticed that when you quoted my question, you ignored the fact that I added "shaved head" to the list. Now, as a bonus, I would ask you to answer question number 2 not only for the items mentioned and "shaved head," but also add "beard" and "mustache." I'll explain why after you answer.

 

One more thing. If you do, indeed, believe that "long hair" is either immoral or violates traditional values or both, answer this: Were George Washington, John Adams, James Madison and most of their peers "immoral" because they had long hair? (Yeah, I know they were actually wigs, but it seems to me that if certain hairstyle is immoral, it's worse if you actually make the effort to go out and buy or make it instead of just neglecting to get a haircut. And I didn't mention Jefferson or Franklin because they had their own well-known moral failings that had nothing to do with the length of their hair.)

 

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I have to butt in.

 

1st define long hair. longer than yours? Longer than The Beatles? It's all subjective. A long haired Scout can live by the Scout Oath & Law just as well as a short haired Scout.

 

2nd - While I don't like earings on guys, as long as it doesn't pose a safety hazard or isn't offensive, what's the issue. An earringed Scout can live by the Scout Oath & Law just as well as a non-earringed Scout.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

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You know what NJ, Im going to guess that when your were a little kid youd make rules for games and then change them when you were losing, am I close? While Im happy to jump through more of your arbitrary hoops Im going to ask you keep your integrity and answer my little question. How are these things Tradition Values? Standning ready with high boots and towel firmly in hand.

 

 

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Ed, I dont disagree with that, in fact, I think a boy who wears make-up, lipstick and high heels can live by the Oath and Laws, dont you? The fact remains, would you deny a CO to make membership rules for appearance?

 

 

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DD,

If the rules are in compliance with the BSA rules, then yes. Otherwise, no.

 

Bob,

Does the BSA have rules not guidelines for appearance?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

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As professor Henry Higgins would say. "I think he's got it, by Jove he's got it!"

 

DD asks (and I quote) "Ed, I dont disagree with that, in fact, I think a boy who wears make-up, lipstick and high heels can live by the Oath and Laws, dont you? The fact remains, would you deny a CO to make membership rules for appearance?"

 

And that is the point. The most behavior that has been discussed is controlled in the BSA by allowing the Chartered Organizations to control membership.

 

The BSA says that the chartered organization can set its own membership standards as long as they are more stringent than those of the BSA.

 

The dress wearing, purple haired, tatooed, body piercing, boy with the heart of gold can be restricted from scouting by the membership requirements of the Chartered Organization.

 

Several posters have confused membership with advancement. The only advancement rules regarding appearance say that the scout should wear as complete and correct a uniform as possible, and that a scout is clean in appearance.

 

So lets get the dress off this guy and get him in a uniform. Now let's say the Chatered Organization does not have a membership rule against hair coloring or pierced ears. Can we withhold advancement beacause we feel it is not reflective of the Chartered Organizations Ideals? NO

 

If they Chartered Organization feels that way then they should remove his membership. Unless they do, you can only restrict advancement based on the non-completetion of the requirements in the Boy Scout Handbook. There is no requirement or requirement restriction on hair color or jewelry.

 

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One word - Semantics

 

Once the CO has discovered a conflict in values (perhaps at a BOR), they can simply give him the ultimatum. Change or leave.

 

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That converstion would best be done at a committee meeting, with the parents present, and the COR. The committee cannot remove membership. It takes the authority of the COR or Charter Executive Officer.

 

Save the BOR to talk about advancement not membership.

 

(My recommendation)

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No, upon making the discovery, it is reasonable to expect the BOR to be postponed until the issue is resolved. Furthermore, a BOR can be conducted for purposes other than rank advancement. Also, if the SM made the discovery, it would be reasonable for him to delay signing off Scout Spirit until such issue was resolved. He is suppose to represent the values of the chartering organization.

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OK, DedicatedDad, I will ignore what could be viewed as a personal attack and implied questions about my integrity. I am confident with my own integrity. As for who between us is childish and insists on making his own rules for debate, I will leave for others to judge.

 

My answer to your question is this: I do not think that having long hair, unnaturally colored hair, or an earring represent "traditional values." I never said or implied that they did. Nor do I think that these things violate "traditional values," as you apparently do. I don't think they really implicate values at all. They are simply matters of style, fashion and taste. I suppose it is possible that at the extreme, matters of style, fashion and taste can implicate values and morality, but (let's say) shoulder length hair doesn't even come close to that line if it's kept clean. Same with pastel-colored hair or earrings.

 

Now, there is a category of things that, so far, I have avoided discussing, such as eyebrow rings, tongue rings and conspicuous tatoos. Even on a youth, I don't think these are necessarily matters of values or morality, but I think they may cross a different boundary. They do show, in my opinion, poor judgment and perhaps an intention to disrupt the group (in the Scouting context) by calling undue attention to ones-self. If I were the appropriate authority in a troop (whether that would be the CO, IH, CR, committee, PLC or some combination, I leave for others to discuss), I might very well approve a rule banning such things at troop meetings. (I'm not sure what you do about a boy who already has a tatoo on the neck or hand, that cannot be covered by the uniform.) Not as an advancement requirement, not as a matter of "Scout spirit," but as a matter of "behavior" during activities.

 

So, bottom line: I think we need to make distinctions between matters of style and fashion that do not implicate values or morals; matters of poor judgment; behavior with disruptive intent; and behavior that is immoral. Category 1 is left up to the individual, category 4 is regulated or prohibited depending on what it is, and categories 2 and 3 are matters of local option.

 

So now, DedicatedDad, it's definitely your turn. I want to know if you think long hair, green hair (our hypothetical Scout got a new dye job), earrings, makeup, shaved head, beard and mustache, are immoral. And don't forget about our Founding Fathers and their long hair. Were they immoral due to their chosen appearance?

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Rooster7

 

"He is suppose to represent the values of the chartering organization.

 

If that were true then a Jewish boy, who belonged to a troop chartered by the Catholic church, would be expected to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God or he couldn't advance.

 

As long as a boy is a member of the troop he has only to meet the standards of scouting. Which to my understanding is in keeping with the standards of every chartering organization or they wouldn't choose to have a scout unit.

 

Can anyone think of any organization using scouting that doesn't accept scoutings ideals?

 

Bob

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