andrewcanoe 10 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 As far as the OA ordeal as a hazing, my 16 year old autistic son has no interest in doing his ordeal because he feels it is hazing. Do I support him? Hell,yes! As a lodge member do I think membership in the OA is important Hell,yes! Will he do ordeal at his next and last chance? Only time will tell. I'm sure that I could make some arrangement to have him do ordeal in a way in which he is comfortable but won't he be single out by this as well? The results would be the same as a hazing. Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 OGE, Not asking inane questions! If you consider singing for lost items hazing then why isn't the ordeal in OA considered hazing? That's in initiation & according to the BSA shouldn't be allowed! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Ed, go yank on somebody's elses chain, your act is growing mighty thin on me Link to post Share on other sites
fotoscout 15 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Singing for a lost item is like forcing that very timid and shy CS to perform in a skit. Some kids like it and some dont. If the boy is afraid and embarrassed by it, then he his humiliated and we cant be involved with that kind of stuff. The issue here is about forcing the boy to do it, not about the act of singing for a lost item. Some boys love the stage may thrive on this kind of thing; others however are petrified and will not do it regardless of whats at stake. To force that child is hazing at the very least and abusive at its worst. Link to post Share on other sites
FScouter 24 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 I suppose the OA ordeal could be considered hazing if the purpose of the ordeal was to humiliate, embarrass, punish, and make a laughingstock out of the boy. Do they do those kind of things at an ordeal? Link to post Share on other sites
andrewcanoe 10 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 What do we do for the scout who feels that the ordeal is an embarassing ,humiliating, punishing hazing? I don't think it is meant as such but I'm sure there are others who might. Link to post Share on other sites
EagleInKY 14 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 I've got real mixed emotions about this whole concept of political correctness vs. hazing. I remember as a scout I once left my buddy tag on the board at the water front. I was so excited about passing the 1/4 mile swim for lifesaving, I totally forgot about it. Luckily, they knew me and knew I had left safely. At lunch, they announced that I was missing and asked if anyone had seen me. I had to go in front of the dining hall and wear a PFD during the announcements. Embarassing? Yes. Did I ever forget my buddy tag again? Heck no. My old troop used to have neat initiation ritual. It was kind of like the "trust fall" concept, only the scout was blindfolded and didn't know what he was falling into. They had to stop doing it because someone complained that it was hazing. I've had boys tease others about snipe hunting and other gags. I'll let them play so far, but I never let them follow through with it. I would never want any of the bad experiences mentioned here or other places to be traced back to a troop I led. It's funny, I try to get scouts to go spider sniffing with me, and they think it's a gag. They all think it's like snipe hunting. I'll say "no, this is real", and they just say "Sure, it is".... Bottom line, I try to let the guys have a little fun, but never let them go too far. The hard part is that everyone's definition of "too far" is different. Link to post Share on other sites
anarchist 10 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 GOOD GRIEF! We spend a great deal of time messing with P C -'cover our butts rules' instead for fostering fun and friendship...BSA and it's leaders have become afraid of their own shadows. They have seemingly forgotten that a little silliness is good the soul. Some of this fear (read PC regulations)is directly the result of the attempt to include 'special' kids. Boys, that perhaps in the good old days would not of been able to have the scouting experience are now accommodated. Sometimes its just accommodating spoiled kids with powerful parents.... As a parent of an "special" child (ADHD-COD among the list)....I say this .... Perhaps one day our troop will run into a boy who says "no" to singing...but somehow, I think the troop will handle it with out caving into a sterile sit on our hands 'ban the song' solution or as my 'special' son has said... "take all the fun out of scouting"... And I hope the parents out there with special kids see that there just maybe more ways to handle this kind of experience than the way our/your special child wants...(you know?... now that I think about it... my son is not always right or reasonable...is yours?) The spirt of the thing and the inclusion and yes the silly fun is WAY more important than momentary embarrassment...But perhaps the boys in our troop are all extremely exceptional... though somehow I doubt it...I think we as adults (leaders, BSA and society) are just afraid and lack imagination... and calling it abusive is just wrong fotoscout, final thought, B.W. fotoscout and others... I love you for what you do to help boys grow...and teach us neanderthals the rules...but wrap your minds around this... Let's stop asking boys to recite the promise or the law or outdoor code...earn merit badges, learn to swim handle cope courses earn rank and learn to cook and camp out at night...in the dark... goodness! ....we wouldn't want someone to feel out of sorts now would we... guess it depends on who's ox is being gored in any particular question, doesn't it. good grief! just toss'n out a few fire bombs must have too much time on my hands Anarchist Link to post Share on other sites
fotoscout 15 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 When you force someone to perform an act that is against his will, just to retrieve something that is his to start with, it is abusive. In addition, this behavior is not a harbinger of Scoutlike behavior. There is nothing positive or educational about it for the boys who does not want to perform for your enjoyment! That my friend is something so simple that even a true anarchist could understand. Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Talk about grasping for straws. Someone explain how the OA is remotely similar. In the OA you have every step explained to you before hand, you are not singled out in a negative way, the purpose and sybolism is explained, and you are made to feel as an honored guest, and yo can choose not to do it and nobody keeps your stuff. Now you tell me how being forced to perform some stunt so that you can get your own property back is the same. These are other peoples kids that have been ebtrusted to us, they are not your personal pet monkeys to make perform for you to makeup for your own inadequacies as a leader. And I am holding back what I would truly like to say! Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 You don't complete your ordeal, you don't get your OA sash. You don't sing "Little Bunny Foo Foo" you don't get your lost pocket knife back. What's the difference! And don't hold back, Bob! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Inane analogy, Ed here is simply just playing us for his own entertainment, I can see him at his computer chuckling and rubbing his hands together in glee as he reads what "he made us do" as we try to put together logical, well-crafted thought out explanations, don't bother, he ain't buying. He knows its not right, he just wants to see how many of us he can frustrate. Link to post Share on other sites
srisom 10 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 As a youth in Scouts, my troop had the singing for lost items. When I took over a troop as an adult, they were singing for lost items. After a couple years, some would not do it and the practice was dropped. No one felt any better or worse for it. Items were still lost. Now I have three big boxes of lost items that no one claims. Is singing for lost items hazing? Most likely. But in doing it, the youth did learn some responsibility. And there was some discipline. Now, there is not any real consequence for actions. Also a lack of responsibility. AS for the OA, it is a voluntary program. If selected, the person (youth or adult) has the option to refuse to take the Ordeal. Their choice. If that is their choice, fine. However, there should be no arrangements made to allow someone to be a member of the OA if they are not willing to adhere to the requirements for membership. To do so would de-value the the selection and recognition of all members. Don't change the program to be PC for a few. Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 "Is singing for lost items hazing? Most likely. But in doing it, the youth did learn some responsibility" More likely they learned avoidance, Oh, and they learned how to sing. Link to post Share on other sites
Double Eagle 128 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 A really hard question. What positive stuff do you do to a scout that turns in a lost item? Not a sock or hat but a knife or money. Lets turn the attention away from the loser to praise the spirit in the finder. Link to post Share on other sites
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