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Bob White

Cub Scouts Camping

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I'll agree that there are no hairs to be split.

 

Foto DID say he is BALOO trained (actually he said he sat through the class). Being BALOO trained, I give him the benefit of the doubt that he obtained a tour permit and was in an approved location. I agree he has no reason to deny it being a Scout activity, since he has followed all the proper procedures. But even that is not outside the spirit of recreational family camping, were all families are responsible for themselves, they just happen to be with other Scout families.

 

So the only remaining issue is whether or not a den can camp. If they meet all the standards for a Pack campout, what's the difference? A committee member's signature is required on the permit, so it's not as if they are sneaking around behind the Pack. Slice the problem in the other direction -- you plan a Pack campout, but only members of one den choose to attend, does that violate policy? Of course not.

 

I know that idea of a "den campout" conjures the specter of an untrained den leader hauling six boys out into the woods by himself, a la "Follow Me, Boys." (I know how much you love that movie, Bob.) There are policies which must be followed to take Cubs camping, regardless of the makeup of the group. From the information here, Foto seems to have followed them.

 

If you want to leave a warning to others, how about this: get trained, read Guide to Safe Scouting, follow the procedures to the best of you knowledge and ability, go have fun with the boys.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

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Twocubdad,

fotoscout said "Last year I did a Den Family Camping Trip. This year, after sitting through Baloo,..."

 

The difference between the den and pack camping is communications. The pack committee has the responsibility to make sure the proper training has taken place, that responsible leadership is in control of the event, that the correct permits have been filed, that liability protection for the leaders and the CO are in place. That the location is approved by Council.

 

The difference is the courtesy and responsibility to protect those who were left unprotected when the Den when camping.

 

Bob White

 

(Follow Me Boys is a very fun and heart warming movie, I enjoy it every time I see it. It's just not good scouting.)

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Good morning everybody,

 

Lets make sure we dont get confused here.

 

This year Pack Overnighter

Council Approved Cub Scout Camp Site .Yes

All the G2SS rules followed.Yes

Tour Permit Yes

Baloo trained.Yes

 

Last years Family Overnighter

Council Approved Cub Scout Camp Site .Yes

The G2SS rules followed.Yes

Tour Permit No

Baloo Trained.No

 

As TwoCub very nicely points out, there are number of ambiguities in the G2SS rules for Cub Scout camping. We camped in the same way last year as we camped this year. Baloo stresses structure and if youre going out in the woods with a group of 6-7 year olds you darn well better have structure, no one needs Baloo to tell them that. Our program last year was identical except for some age appropriate changes. The only thing we could not do was to put up our Den Flag. Prior to going everyone knew that this wasnt really a CS trip. I explained the reasoning and even gave them a copy of the lines that TwoCub noted above. The end result was that they thought less of the Scouting Program for having such ridiculous rules. Granted they have little understanding of the CO relationship. But from the outset, last year, we went as friends.

 

The casual observer (and there was one) commented, Wow, you guys really have your act together. The Scouter would have commented, Gee, there must be a Baloo trained person in the group, and of course there was not.

 

This year was a by the book Pack trip.

 

 

Bob White writes ....Den leaders (Tiger, Wolves and Bears) are not trained in the safety, sanitation, and program rules for den camping.....

 

 

So Bob, youre advocating that anyone who has sat through Baloo training is now qualified to the extent necessary to lead a Cub Scout Pack on an overnighter. You say that, that person, by virtue of Baloo, is now competent in, what did you refer to, safety, sanitation, and program rules. They got all of that out of an eight hour course.

 

Then they went to Costco, or Sams Club and bought a dance hall size tent for $49.00. Now, theyve taken Baloo and they own a tent.TA DAAAA.. a new camper is born. And, tour permit in hand, this camper is going to lead a group of Cub Scouts into the woods.

 

We had over one inch of rain last Saturday. The program went forward, only one person went home because his tent was soaked, (and that was because he didnt listen), and everyone had a great time. Not even one Bandaid was dispensed. It wasnt Baloo that made it happen!

 

 

 

 

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There is a piece of the discussion that is missing.

 

The point here really is the importance of CS camping. CS and CS parents expect to go camping. They expect the program to be outdoors. I dont have the survey, Bob you probably have it, but National did survey that, amongst other things came to the conclusions I just mentioned.

 

I understand that its this survey that spawned the current CS camping push by National.

 

The point should not be one of liability fears. The point should be one of giving the boys a safe and positive outdoor experience.

 

 

 

 

 

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"Last years Family Overnighter

Council Approved Cub Scout Camp Site .Yes

The G2SS rules followed.Yes

Tour Permit No

Baloo Trained.No"

 

Unless you said Yes to the last two, you cannot say yes to the first two.

 

The council approves the cub camp location and activities based on the information in the tour permit which was not filed.

 

The G2SS requires that the leader have BALOO training and that a tour permit be approved by council.

 

By what authority does a Den Leader risk the finances of the chartering organization by leading an unapproved activity?

 

I do not want to beat a dead horse, and what has happened in the past cannot be changed, but to say anything goes if it's for the kids is not a responsible or safe attitude. As the leader of an overnight activity you have a responsibility to keep your family, the other registered adults, and Charter Organization safe as well as the scouts.

 

The purpose of BALOO is not to make someone an expert camper, that takes years of experience. The purpose of BALOO is to give a Cub leader the basic administrative information and resources needed to operate a family camp within the regulations of the BSA program, and to introduce some very basic camping information they can share with the families to help less experienced campers be more comfortable.

 

Take cubs camping as often as you can, but do it right.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Bob,

 

With respect to the campsite location, we have a list of campsite locations pre approved for use with Cub Scouts. This is a location approval; it does not imply tour permit approval. Our council camp does not have the parking space for the number of vehicles involved with a CS overnighter in addition to its regular schedule of BS activities. So they have a limited list of County/State Park campsites that can be used for CS.

 

I carefully removed the word All from the G2SS line, for the very reason that you pointed out. Much of what is in the G2SS is simply prudent by todays standards and a good outline to follow. It wouldnt matter if I was taking a CS group camping, or a class on a field trip, some of it just makes good sense in todays world.

 

On another topic Bob, do you have the survey I referred to? There was a section on Child and Parent expectations of the CS program. I am interested in seeing that section.

 

 

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Sorry no,I do not have that survey. Your local professional may be able to access it on ScoutNet.

 

Even with a list of sites, specific approval must be given by the council based on the activities planned for your specific event. The list given by your council is general information and does not in itself qualify your outing as an approved BSA activity.

 

Bob white

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Hello, I am looking to find the information about weather a Webelo Scout can camp without his parent or guardian.

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Accoring to the G2SS -

 

"Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camp Schooltrained leadership and managed by the council.

 

"A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult. Joint Webelos dentroop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.

 

I copied this from the online G2SS on the scouting.org website.

 

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The rule is that a Cub/Webelos Scout must have a parent or guardian present when camping. What I have told leaders during training is if a Cub/Webelos Scout's parent or legal guardian can not go on the trip with the scout, and there is no other solution, that the parents can send the Scout with another person that they have arranged with out side of scouting to watch/take care of their child with the following conditions.

1) That person can not sleep in the same tent as the Scout and the Scout should not sleep alone.

2) You as the leader of the Den can not enter into this type of aggreement since you already are responibile for not only your child, but also the whole Den.

 

As I stated this is a last resort to solve a problem, and in my opinion should only be used if a Scout needs the trip to advance. Do not mentions this to the members of the Den unless asked and make sure that both parties involved are aware that this is an agreement between THEM and that BSA is not involved in the agreement in anyway.

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Fboisseau,

 

My understanding is that if the parent delegates responsibility for a child (in writing), to another adult, than, that other adult can sleep in the tent with the child.

 

Your interpretation would create a situation where the child sleeps alone, and with CS & Webelos that is not supposed to happen.

 

Does anyone have a clarification on this?

 

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From the G2SS -

 

"When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian. "

 

Sounds like guardian is okay. But, I would hesitate to do so in this case. When Webelos camp with the troop, we encourage the boys to pair up. It helps get them out of the "parent trap" (overly involved moms & dads doing everything for them) and to start thinking about the patrol method.

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If an adult agrees to supervise another child for a parent or legal guardian during a cub scout activity, that does not make them a "legal guardian" of the scout. It only designates them as the supervising adult. Legal guardianship requires a court action.

 

A supervising adult may not be alone with a scout, or share a tent with a scout, who is not his son or under his legal guardianship.

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Have to agree with BW. To protect both parties, an adult that is not a parent or legal guardian should not sleep in a tent with youth member, regardless of any agreement made with a parent. It's a situtation that presents potentially very unpleasant issues and would seem to be relatively easy to avoid.

 

SA

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Thanks guys.

 

Its easy to see why there is a question here. The G2SS says guardian, yet to err on the safe side people have changed guardian to Legal Guardian, two very different phrases, especially to the lawyers among us.

 

How would you guys interpret this if the other adult was a grandparent, uncle or older sibling?

 

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