What to do with semi-uniformed ASM

[camilam42 10]

@ Beavah;

 

First, boys don't naturally go hog-wild about adopting and ratifying charters and bylaws over and over again without a lot of adult driving. Second, there isn't a group of red-blooded boys anywhere that wouldn't read da first two sentences and point out that (1) the BSA uniform doesn't make yeh look like a "backwoodsman" at all and (2) that the BSA uniform doesn't cover up differences in country the way old B-P's uniform did, it identifies yeh as American.

 

Boys have a keen sense for that sort of thing, eh?

 

Go back and read my post, Beavah. The vast majority of the Scouts who come through our program NEVER have to deal with this. This is a PLC thing once every three years.

 

We, as leaders, instill in the PLC a sense of duty when doing these things, because it leads to teaching them more important things like engaging their city councils, voting, and civic duty. Isn't that part of what Scouting is about? It sure is. And the Scouts who are on the PLC are enthusiastic about it.

 

You just can't get it out of your head, no matter how many times I say it that my troop is not Adult Run. It isn't. It is Adult Led. That is part of the Adult Assocication method.

 

So to get to that full spit-and-polished thing, yeh have to do the stuff that camilam42 suggests. Adults "calling out" boys on their uniform. Adults quotin' longwinded boldfaced uniform apologetics.

 

Of course that is long winded...whatever fella. It was a very concise cut and paste of the best practices of the BSA. I'm sorry you don't like it.

 

It just depends on your goals, eh? If your goals as a unit are to look sharp, well, then I reckon that's the fastest, straight-line path to the goal.

 

If your goals have more to do with developin' character and skill in the lads, then that depends on the boys being able to make choices.

 

Has it ever crossed your mind that the Scouts made this choice? I can tell you that we did. I was part of the first PLC in 1985 who ratified it. It was encouraged by our Scoutmaster at the time, but we came up with the wording and we came up with the amendment. And we have been the one's to encourage our Scouts to look at it critically, every three years.

 

Bottom line, Beavah....YOU HAVE NOT LISTENED TO WHAT I'VE SAID. You have simply regurgitated your own bias over and over and over. I have said several times now, to both you and others that we are an adult led troop, not adult run. Please listen going forward.

 

And for the record, my Scouts take pride in Scouting by being properly uniformed. When they go to camp, they are constantly commended and complimented on their appearance, whether it be in full dress or in camp t's with pants or shorts. Everyone knows who our troop is and everyone knows who our patrols are.

 

As for the rest, you are speaking out of turn. My Scouts don't just "book learn." I would put my Scouts up against any troop in the USA when it comes to camping and the Outdoor method.

 

And finally. You know who is most excited at camp and in parades, etc....it isn't me. It's my SPL. He's the one who is accountable to his peers. And they love it, all of it.

 

So, get off your Adult-run soapbox. You're making a mistake by keeping on that fallacious line of reasoning.

[KC9DDI 11]

Seattle - Always happy to make points, but I'm not sure I deserve credit for that this time :-)

 

I see your unit decides for itself what it's uniforming standards will be. Thank you for making my point.

 

Right, that's my point too. As I've said several times throughout this thread, individual units need to set reasonable and responsible goals and standards for their implementation of each of the various Methods of Scouting.

 

You think we should disregard poor advancement results in favor of spending limited time and energy on uniforming?

 

No, of course not. What did I say that would make you think otherwise?

 

But I can see you would be unhappy with such efforts. Perhaps you think these activities should be abandoned in favor of spending my limited time promoting uniforming among existing Cub Scouts?

 

No, of course not. What did I say that would make you think otherwise?

 

Thank you for making the point that you have no understanding at all of the issues other units may have.

 

What did I say or do to make this point?

 

Seattle, I'm legitimately trying to figure out where the breakdown in communication that caused you to reach those conclusions occurred. I don't think you're doing anything wrong in your units. I don't think units that adopt less stringent standards for uniforming are doing anything wrong. I do think that units that chose to adopt a higher uniforming are being unfairly criticized, and I'm trying to figure out why that's the case.

 

Beavah - What I'm saying is that units can appropriately use the uniform method to encourage a high standard of uniforming without sacrificing the other methods of Scouting. I think you and Baden and others are projecting some personal anecdotes of poorly-run units onto ALL units that set a high standard for uniforming. It's really not fair to assume that all units with high uniforming standards have poor program, etc, etc, without having any knowledge of those individual units. It's made worse by directing personal attacks towards the Scouters associated with those units, and making some not-very-nice assumptions about their motives, the quality of their units' programs, etc.

 

It would be like if I said that my unit's goal was to go camping 12 times a year, and you said "Well, in my experience units with that type of goal tend to be adult-led, car-camping, troop-method units with no sense of youth leadership or functional patrols! If I spent all my time going camping my advancement program would fall apart! And some of my families might not be able to afford monthly camping trips! What's wrong with you?! You don't understand anything about other units! You're not really in it for the boys, are you?! You probably have 12 rows of knots on your shirt, too!" That kind of knee-jerk, frenzied response is really not that far removed from some of the criticism levied towards units with high uniforming standards that we've seen on this thread.

 

Yes, we're all influenced by our experiences, and it's understandable to try to correlate what we perceive to be an indicator of quality program (like uniforming) with actual program quality. But it's certainly not fair to assume that each and every Scouter who advocates a high uniforming standard is so incompetent as to not be able to use the uniform method appropriately - and that's the attitude that I'm a bit uncomfortable with in the context of this particular thread.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I reckon that's a might simplistic there, camilam42. The fellow who is workin' two jobs just so his family can get by may be usin' that cup of coffee just so he can stay alert durin' his shift.

 

I think we should be a might careful, or at least kind, about judging folks for their financial choices. That $180 can be used for a uniform, or it can be used to fully outfit a lad in the camping gear he needs to participate in the outdoor program - sleeping bag, pad, rain gear, hiking boots. Or it might be needed to repair the refrigerator that just broke down.

 

B

 

 

 

[camilam42 10]

@ Beavah;

 

Yah, I reckon that's a might simplistic there, camilam42. The fellow who is workin' two jobs just so his family can get by may be usin' that cup of coffee just so he can stay alert durin' his shift.

 

I think we should be a might careful, or at least kind, about judging folks for their financial choices. That $180 can be used for a uniform, or it can be used to fully outfit a lad in the camping gear he needs to participate in the outdoor program - sleeping bag, pad, rain gear, hiking boots. Or it might be needed to repair the refrigerator that just broke down.

 

So, you're saying that a parent of a Scout is using a drug to do his job effectively? How is that being a good parent! OMG!!! I cannot believe that you'd stoop so low as to condone that action! How is that morally straight? Of course I'm kidding, but you can see the knee-jerk reaction and what it can entail. And it is that kind of mentality which you have garnered toward me and several others. I don't appreciate it.

 

How have I NOT BEEN KIND!?!?!?!? You really are judgmental. I offer a reasonable solution which anyone can attain and automatically, I'm not kind. How is that being courteous or friendly? Because thus far, you haven't been either toward me. A little fraternal advice from one Scouter to another...perhaps you need to reevaluate your attitude toward me and toward this thread.

 

You're right, the $180 can be used for those things, but honestly, most troops have camping gear available until the Scout can obtain his own.

 

As for the refrigerator issue. Well, Beavah, I've had the same fridge for 20 years. It's out in the garage now as a secondary fridge for drinks and ice, but it runs as well as the day it was purchased. Your examples are pretty extreme.

[BadenP 93]

This discussion reminds me of the debate between the Catholics and the Protestants over who was right regarding the Reformation. Look all of us scout leaders sees value in the troop being in full uniform, but as several have pointed out that is not always possible due to a variety of situations economically and otherwise. The debate then becomes are the troops who are in uniform from the waist up only the same quality of scout as a fully uniformed troop and the answer to that is a resounding YES. Then the debate centers around quality of program with some of the posters implying that the half uniformed troop has somehow a lesser quality program than the fully uniformed troop and that is just plain nonsense.

 

So to you scout leaders who think your troop is somehow superior because they are fully uniformed and always love to point out at council and district events those units who are not in full uniform, IMHO are just being petty and vindictive and have forgotten what a scout leader truly is supposed to be. Scouting is a brotherhood that unites all of us to a greater purpose, accepting all of us in scouting no matter what. Getting hung up over the uniform, quoting passages from a century ago, criticizing those not in full uniform is undignified, unscoutlike, and has NO place in scouting.

 

Methods of Scouting are guidelines to help develop your troop program they are NOT mandates from Mt. Sinai so get over yourselves already. We are here to serve the youth not to make some kind of fashion statement. Those of you who are so adamant about full uniforms being the ONLY way probably have been in scouting too long and need to find a new venue to volunteer your time.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

>

 

 

 

I never claimed that strong units would be driven to failure by having high uniforming standards.

 

 

I said that WEAK units could be driven to failure by concentrating scarce resources on the wrong issues. I gave my own unit as an example.

 

BSA wise gives Scout units wide latitude in deciding how to present the program. Nothing illustrates why that is important more than a thread like this one.

[Beavah 205]

Bottom line, Beavah....YOU HAVE NOT LISTENED TO WHAT I'VE SAID.

 

Yah, hmmm... well, I reckon that's possible, though I have been trying. I think I have been listening to what you've said, and I just disagree.

 

Every scouter everywhere claims that his is a boy-run troop, uses patrol method, etc. One of the things yeh have to live through whenever scouters get together for the first time is a round of chest-thumping about each unit's great program.

 

And naturally they all truly believe that, eh? A group of enthusiastic parents comin' out of cubs and running a Webelos 3 program will brag about being boy-run more than some truly boy run units. So one of the things yeh start to pick up on over the years is not what people say, exactly, but how they say it. When you say things like "my troop is not Adult Run. It isn't. It is Adult Led. That is part of the Adult Assocication method", that suggests that, perhaps, in the wide scheme of Youth Leadership Method, yeh aren't quite where yeh think yeh are. Because the Method is Youth Leadership, eh? Not "adult-led". And Adult Association is somethin' that's very different from being "Adult Led."

 

Now I'm just a fellow at the other end of an internet connection measurin' your words and the nature of your responses, eh? I can't "see" your troop, so you'll just have to forgive me if I'm totally out to lunch. What I have seen are troops of other folks who make the same sort of claims and use the same expressed approach as you are here, and those units I can say from direct observation are more adult-led than the average, in ways that lead to different outcomes with the boys. For example, if yeh read other threads, a substantial majority of experienced scouters here would tell yeh that there really is no place for "troop bylaws" of the sort yeh mention in a youth-led unit. I'll admit to being in the minority in this case, but would gently suggest that what you're calling "bylaws" are nowhere near what real civic organization bylaws are or should be, and in that way would be a poor example to the boys.

 

I reckon that we can all do a better job for our boys, and some words from other experienced hands might make us stop and think. But of course, if yeh are already perfect, feel free to ignore this old fellow.

 

Now, let me just comment for a brief moment on your whole bit about judgin' people for being poor parents if they use a cup of coffee to get through the late shift at work. I'm willing to respect the position of the LDS with regard to "drugs" including caffeine, but I think yeh step quite a ways over the line when yeh jump to equating a cup o' joe with poor parenting. It does seem part and parcel with your approach more generally, but here again I reckon there's a deeper meaning to "Reverent" or "Kind" that yeh might be missing.

 

As to the rest, each example that I used was a real life example from my own personal experience, not somethin' I made up. I think you have been blessed with livin' a relatively sheltered life, and should thank the Great Scoutmaster for your blessings. Lots of troops do not have a whole lot of personal gear (sleeping bags, hiking boots, etc.) available for boys to use; in fact many scrape by tryin' to have enough tents and cook gear.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[camilam42 10]

@ Beavah;

 

One of the things yeh have to live through whenever scouters get together for the first time is a round of chest-thumping about each unit's great program.

 

I don't for a second believe that. There are problems in my Troop and there are problems in the Pack which is associated with it. That is not what we're discussing here though. We're discussing uniforming. Right? Isn't that what this thread is about? I haven't delved into my Troop's politics too much, because this isn't the place for it. I have intimated what the Troop's position on uniforming is. Nothing more, nothing less. I can tell you this though, our view of uniforming is very clear and it is very well defined. I know you don't like that, because of the "stigma" that it supposedly places on Scouts, but the truth of the matter is that my Scouts like putting the uniform on. They buy into the Uniforming method. They have fun and are on board with it, because they see the adults who are associated with the Troop having fun and being on board with it.

 

Now I'm just a fellow at the other end of an internet connection measurin' your words and the nature of your responses, eh? I can't "see" your troop, so you'll just have to forgive me if I'm totally out to lunch. What I have seen are troops of other folks who make the same sort of claims and use the same expressed approach as you are here, and those units I can say from direct observation are more adult-led than the average, in ways that lead to different outcomes with the boys.

 

I suppose you are just a fellow. And you can't see my Troop, but you can't just assume things like that. It makes you look foolish and petty. Because this is an internet forum, you have to give the benefit of the doubt. I have never once questioned the motives of your district, have I, "commish?" Yet you're questioning my motives and undermining my credibility on this forum, interesting. So, without any basis, you're lumping me in with a group which you have a preconceived notion about, without any basis and contrary to what I've actually presented. Interesting. Now I'm getting a clearer picture of your character. AND that is justifiable.

 

For example, if yeh read other threads, a substantial majority of experienced scouters here would tell yeh that there really is no place for "troop bylaws" of the sort yeh mention in a youth-led unit. I'll admit to being in the minority in this case, but would gently suggest that what you're calling "bylaws" are nowhere near what real civic organization bylaws are or should be, and in that way would be a poor example to the boys.

 

I've been involved in Scouting for 31 years, 22 as a Scouter. So, while I am sure that there are many here who have more "experience" than me, I can also say that I'm not exactly a green horn. So, you can gently suggest all you want, but the truth of the matter is that I do have a good understanding of the various methods and aims of Scouting from both a youth and adult perspective. And you have no idea how we impart our knowledge of civics to the Scouts, so I would just quietly back away from that one (our Scoutmaster was mayor of our city for 17 years). You can't possibly stand your ground and convince me that our civic mindedness is misguided. Sorry.

 

I reckon that we can all do a better job for our boys, and some words from other experienced hands might make us stop and think. But of course, if yeh are already perfect, feel free to ignore this old fellow.

 

I know I can do better, that is why my opinion is always open to amendment, if provable, through facts, that it is wrong or wrongheaded. My personal pledge to myself with regard to Scouting is (and I'll say it again), "If it's not good for the Scout, I'm not going to do it." I've amended many things over time. We don't car camp. We don't allow junk food. We have adopted a winter lock-in with video games (the one time a year, when electronics are allowed at a Scouting event: save the Scouters having cell phones, Scouts, no).

 

As for ignoring you, no I shall not do that. Your view continually affirms that my Troop is doing the right thing by adhering to the various methods we employ. Thank you for that. I will continue to glean what I can from your posts.

 

Now, let me just comment for a brief moment on your whole bit about judgin' people for being poor parents if they use a cup of coffee to get through the late shift at work. I'm willing to respect the position of the LDS with regard to "drugs" including caffeine, but I think yeh step quite a ways over the line when yeh jump to equating a cup o' joe with poor parenting. It does seem part and parcel with your approach more generally, but here again I reckon there's a deeper meaning to "Reverent" or "Kind" that yeh might be missing.

 

Really? What part of "Of course I'm kidding, but you can see the knee-jerk reaction and what it can entail..." did you not understand? I'm curious.

 

I think you have been blessed with livin' a relatively sheltered life, and should thank the Great Scoutmaster for your blessings. Lots of troops do not have a whole lot of personal gear (sleeping bags, hiking boots, etc.) available for boys to use; in fact many scrape by tryin' to have enough tents and cook gear.

 

No, my life has not been sheltered. Again, you're imposing your bias and misguided perception of me and my Troop. I do thank God for my blessings, daily. And I am aware that lots of troops don't have a whole lot of personal gear, but we do. We do fundraisers for them. We run them by our district committee, we get approval and we raise money so we can have tents, sleeping bags, mess kits, and various camping sundries available. This does come with the expectation that the Scout will obtain for himself the base needs over time. We don't let Scouts just slide. Part of thrifty is that he will be able to save for the things he needs, but we are in a position to help a Scout when he needs it, in this area and in others.

 

So, please get off your stump. Please start giving the benefit of the doubt. We're all Scouters and we're all trying to do what is best for the Scouts. However, this incessant gnawing at the uniforming method as something other than valid, acceptable, desired and necessary is just plain lunacy. Those who bemoan this, speak in generalities, and not in specifics. Those who bemoan this have no basis in fact. The fact is that those of us who do support this have a wealth of examples of the good that the uniforming method provides. Sadly, it doesn't fit into YOUR little box of what YOU want Scouting to be, Beavah, so YOU have to try (unsuccessfully) to run it into the ground every chance YOU get. As a "commish," I would hope you would see the bigger picture. As it is, I'm glad I'm not part of your district, because I don't think I would fit in very well and neither would my Scouts. Our Troop would be YOUR "knot nerds."

 

 

[camilam42 10]

@ BadenP;

 

This discussion reminds me of the debate between the Catholics and the Protestants over who was right regarding the Reformation. Look all of us scout leaders sees value in the troop being in full uniform, but as several have pointed out that is not always possible due to a variety of situations economically and otherwise. The debate then becomes are the troops who are in uniform from the waist up only the same quality of scout as a fully uniformed troop and the answer to that is a resounding YES. Then the debate centers around quality of program with some of the posters implying that the half uniformed troop has somehow a lesser quality program than the fully uniformed troop and that is just plain nonsense.

 

Since I'm a Catholic, I won't really comment on the Reformation issue. LOL!!!

 

Interestingly enough, the debate is rarely started from the uniforming method advocates though. Normally, it is from those who are anti-uniforming method. Look at this thread. It is a clear example of it, at least from the time I started posting. At no point was there any form of judgment, just support for the method and trying to intimate the message that the uniforming method brings to the Scout.

 

So to you scout leaders who think your troop is somehow superior because they are fully uniformed and always love to point out at council and district events those units who are not in full uniform, IMHO are just being petty and vindictive and have forgotten what a scout leader truly is supposed to be. Scouting is a brotherhood that unites all of us to a greater purpose, accepting all of us in scouting no matter what.

 

I've yet to see that, at least in this thread.

 

Getting hung up over the uniform, quoting passages from a century ago, criticizing those not in full uniform is undignified, unscoutlike, and has NO place in scouting.

 

That's directed directly at me. Show me in quotes where I've done any of that? It is an ideal and it is a method. You're right, abusing a method has no place in Scouting, but I think that your characterization is misapplied and wrong. The quoting was from 1985, not 1910. The Scouts, in 1985, used Baden Powell's words as a basis for their amendment to the bylaws, nothing more.

 

Methods of Scouting are guidelines to help develop your troop program they are NOT mandates from Mt. Sinai so get over yourselves already. We are here to serve the youth not to make some kind of fashion statement. Those of you who are so adamant about full uniforms being the ONLY way probably have been in scouting too long and need to find a new venue to volunteer your time.

 

Right, guidelines. And guidelines should be followed when at all possible. If one is going to follow the uniforming guidelines, then he should follow the guidelines, not what he interprets the guidelines to be. The BSA has best practices in place for a reason and those reasons are valid. They are not to harm the Scout/Scouter, but rather to show solidarity.

 

The uniform isn't a fashion statement (at least not for us), it's a method of Scouting. It is a way for the Scouts to be brought to equal footing. Nobody that I've seen on this thread has said that it's the only way, but rather that it is another way. It isn't about the uniforming method to the detriment of Scouting, but rather it is about the uniforming method in support of Scouting.

 

So, to borrow your line, "Those of you who are so adamant about full uniforms being a detriment probably need to find a new venue to volunteer your time." The uniforming method is an acceptable method and it is one which the BSA upholds as being as important as Outdoors or Patrol or any of the other 5. So, no; no one is dropping the hammer on a Troop or Pack who doesn't uniform, but by golly goodness sake, please don't bang on those who do. 99.9% of the time it isn't nearly as diabolical as you are making it out to be (to continue your biblical parlance).

[JMHawkins 15]

Camilam, perhaps I can chime in as a neutral observer. I'm just another guy on the end of another internet connection. The troop I'm in is pretty well uniformed. All the SMASMs except one wear full uniform (the one is another of those retired military types. He said up front he'd be glad to volunteer as an ASM but he was done wearing uniforms. If we'd take him under those conditions, he'd step up. If not, he was happy to continue being a parent helping out where he could. We took him up on the offer without any hesistation or regrets). A typical meeting has 90% of the Scouts in full uniform. I'm not anti-uniform.

 

You're digging yourself a hole in this thread, and you might want to take a step back and re-read some of your posts. You're not coming across well. Through your words, you are coming across as the adult-run fanatic Beavah and BP are hinting at. If that's not who you are, then your words are doing you a disservice.

 

Offered up as a friendly, hopefully courteous, observation.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer 144]

I repeat my earlier words, which I think are burnished in wisdom after the last several posts:

 

 

BSA wise gives Scout units wide latitude in deciding how to present the program. Nothing illustrates why that is important more than a thread like this one.

 

[Eagledad 2777]

>>

I repeat my earlier words, which I think are burnished in wisdom after the last several post

[Scoutfish 16]

" All we all have proven in the last few dozen post is that we are legends in our own mind.

 

Ouch, touche', and AMEN!

 

[BadenP 93]

Barry

 

The quote attributed to me in your last post was NOT mine, so before you start your criticism at least get your facts straight, geesh. What I have relayed in my posts for this thread have all come from my 25+ years of experience in all phases of the scouting program, I have never claimed to have all the answers but I know what works in the everyday world of scouting and what does not work. You my friend are even more critical than myself in many of your posts and have been very vindictive on several occassions.

 

Camilam

 

You really need to cool off, have a drink or a valium and calm down. These are discussions not worldwide negoitiations deciding the fate of scouting. Your rude attacks on me and vicious attacks on Beavah in this thread have bordered on the psychotic. Maybe you have been going through some rough times in your life right now, but taking it out in this forum is really inappropriate. We are all connected through scoutings values and we all look out for the interests of our youth first and foremost. We can all agree to disagree, but there is never any excuse to attack a scouters character.

[KitCarson 10]

Can an old fart returning to scouting after a 30+ year hiatus make an observation?

 

Things never change. This same argument was going on when I last wore a Scoutmaster's Patch. Scouting didn't fold up over this issue in the last third of a century, so perhaps it is time to set this argument aside and concentrate on other issues. Perhaps we should be more concerned with the falling numbers of scouts, and with the current details of national's program.