New BSA knot

[BadenP 93]

Wow, sorry you guys took my posts as an attack on any of you which they were not. Rather my point was to show how this knot thing can get way out of hand and some of the people I have dealt with who wear multitudes of knots on their uniforms who care only for their own ego, most of them are not even unit leaders who work with the kids, rather district and council volunteers. If you want to wear 100 knots on your uniform its fine by me but don't try to defend it by saying you are in scouting just for the kids because clearly those type of scouters are not. Don't worry be happy!

[Tex-Mex Dad 10]

Well, I hve only one knot. My AoL knot. I didn't earn my Eagle, and I missed the Tiger DL knot by one requirement because my schedule doesn't permit me to attend Roundtables or a Council training. Would I like more? Sure! Who doesn't recognition for the work they put in to any organization? But will I be bothered if I don't get more? Not really. I know why I'm here. The 15 years I spent as a youth member/Sea Explorer/ASM were fantastic. Now my son is a Cub, that's why I'm here.

[emb021 16]

BP-

 

No one is disputing that there are people in scouting who are in it for themselves and not the youth. Yes, many of them gravitate to the upper eschelons of the organization.

 

I have had run ins with these types over the years.

 

However, wearing a lot of knots OR being involved at levels above the unit does NOT mean one is in it for themselves and not the youth.

 

 

[BadenP 93]

emb021

 

I agree being in the "upper level" scouting positions does not necessarily mean they do not support the kids, however decorating your uniform with myriads of knots you have to wonder what the real motive is other than look at me and all I have done, especially if they have never been a unit leader. The most impressive scout leader I have ever met was my former scoutmaster and he wore just one knot, even though he had earned almost every award and recognition that a scouter can earn, an Eagle knot which was a little worn with age. I asked him once why he didn't get a new knot to replace the worn one, and he said that the worn knot was given to him by his scoutmaster when he made Eagle and he wore it as a tribute to him, not his own accomplishments. That man, IMHO, was a true scouter who really understood and embraced the true meaning of scouting.

 

So you see why when I witness these pompous types, many of whom have never been a scout or were ever a unit leader working with the kids, but literally have bought their way into the "upper levels" of scouting with their uniforms blazoned with all kinds of knots, medals, pins and patches and acting like they run the council, training, and programs that it kinda ticks me off.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Sorry BadenP, I've simply never observed bad behavior by those wearing several knots that I thought was in any way related to the awards.

 

Knots are the BSA advancement program for adults. Personally I think it's bad behavior to pointedly run down that program and promoting a contemptuous attitude towards those wearing knots ---except for your beloved Scoutmaster, of course.

 

You seem to be exhibiting just the kind of behavior to which you object. Apparently wearing knots isn't the key to that kind of problem.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[BadenP 93]

SP

 

Then you have misread or misunderstood my posts or lack enough scouting experience as an adult leader. You seem to misread a lot of posters on this forum and your own criticisms are showing your lack of grasping the content of many of the posts here. I am not talking at all about wearing a few knots on your uniform either. Maybe when you get more experience working on a council or distict level of scouting you will understand better.

[HawkUH60 10]

Its interesting to see the thought process in the wearing of awards.

 

I have been in the army 18 years and would never wear less then my 3 badges or 14 ribbons on my blues or greens, then again regulations dont really allow for you to wear less then what you have earned (

class Bs and filed uniforms are different) nor would I be looked at as being in it for myself.

 

In scouting it seems your almost chastised for wearing the knots you have earned. Why is this? If you earned 9 knots for example then why do we say that guy is in it for himself? On the other hand if that same guy wore nothing then he is in it for the kids?

 

We would never say the same thing about a youth who earned all the merit badges or might have earned the top awards for each program (AOL, Eagle, Quartermaster, Silver award). I look at most of the adult award knots as at-a-boys like the training knots.

 

We do have those who dont abide by the insignia guide and do wear multiple awards with the same meaning (i.e. wearing the Seabasge knot with the seabadge pin, you wear one or the other but never both) and those guys who go overboard wearing every little pin they have ever earned which junks up the uniform. That I am not for. The uniform should be kept neat, badges straight and in the right place.

 

[BadenP 93]

Hawk

 

You make my point exactly. Scouting is all about the kids and their achievements, not the adults. Even the kids do not wear ALL of their rank or POR or activity patches on their uniforms at the same time do they. So why do some adult scouters insist on wearing every knot, patch and pin on their uniforms for things they earned as a youth, Eagle knot being the one valid exception, or den leader, or scout leader when they are no longer in those positions if it isn't about themselves showing off to other scout leaders?

 

Your military analogy is not a valid one here because the nature and structure of that organization is very different from scouting. Additionally the military is about developing and building a career path, which volunteer adult scouting clearly is not.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[nolesrule 58]

I have to say the one scouter that I personally have the most respect for and whose advice I hold in high regard has 4 rows of knots. He wears them because he earned them, and he's truly there to serve the boys.

 

On the other hand, some of the most pompous scouters I've met only have an Eagle square knot.

 

I hate these generalizations. It shouldn't matter one way or another as long as it's in compliance with the Insignia Guide.

 

And why is it that any discussion of any knot or adult award tends to devolve into a criticism of the nature of those who wear the knots? This argument is getting tiresome.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Eagle92 110]

I think part of this debate on wearing knots or not (no pun intended) comes from several things.

 

#1 If memory serves, WB required you to wear a "clean uniform" with no knots, oa flaps, por patches, etc. Just your council strip, 1, and patrol medallion.

 

#2 I also beleive that at one time national did limit the # of knots you could wear, but don't quote me on that. With the exception of Sea Scouts, who are limited to 6, there is no restrictions.

 

#3 WB21C recommends, stress recommends not mandates, that staff limit the number of knots to 9.

 

#4 There seems to be some animosity towards "buying your knots," i.e. James E. West, NESA Lifetime Member Eagle, etc. While I intially was upset with some of these, I remember one guy donating $4K so that everyone in his family coudl get a knot, I've seen it used by groups of people chipping in to buy a fellowship for a beloved SM or other long time volunteer.

 

Also it's a nice way to say thank you instead of giving them a Siver Beaver when there are tons of volunteers inthe field worthy of the SB.

 

#4 I think some folks are upset that there are a bunch of CS leader knots, but only 2 Boy Scout leader knots, Sea Scout Leader Knots, and Venturing Leader knots: the Key and the Training Award. Whereas it's possible for someone to get the Cub Scouter, TCDL, CSDL, WDL, Pack trainer, and CM awards (am I missing any CS leader awards?)

 

Anyway my $.02 worth.

[jr56 92]

Yes, very tiresome indeed. I am really sorry that BP had a bad experience with one individual who happened to wear alot of knots on his uniform, and now he generalizes about all individuals who he feels wear too many knots.

Generalizations about physical characteristics are sad, and often inaccurate. I repeat, get a life.

[nolesrule 58]

Hooray for buying knots. I bought my NESA Lifetime Eagle knot qualification at least 5 years before they even came up with it. :-)

 

So when it came time to put my second shirt together a couple years back, I got the Eagle knot with the shiny border. It was the same price as the regular Eagle knot, so why not?

 

My first shirt still has the regular Eagle knot, mainly because my wife does the sewing.

[HawkUH60 10]

BP

My military analogy may not have been the best but military service medals and achevement medals do have some similarity to scouting training awards and achevement award. (service based & nominative)

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I went to WB on 2008, You wear what ever uniform you wear with the insigna of your position. No more "slick sleeve" uniforms.

 

The insignia guide recomends you wear no more the 9 knots but its only a recomendation. There is a new sea scout manual out but have not looked to see if they have changed there max of 6 knots.

[emb021 16]

"#1 If memory serves, WB required you to wear a "clean uniform" with no knots, oa flaps, por patches, etc. Just your council strip, 1, and patrol medallion. "

 

Used to. Not any more. When I went thru "Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge" in the 1980, this was so.

 

When they rolled out 21st Century WB, only the staff was required to do stripped uniforms, not the participants (so we wouldn't intemediate the participants. we wore participant neckers and not wb neckers).

 

A few years back when they did minor tweaks, they dropped even requiring the staff to wear a stripped uniform.

 

 

The idea of doing this was that everyone, participants and staff, were kind of on a 'level field'. No issues with some with lots of knots, others few or none, etc.

 

But I know of some people who get bent out of shape with wearing a 'striped uniform' (go figure). One guy on-line was upset that he wouldn't be allowed to wear his troop number on his uniform, thinking it was an insult to his troop not to be allowed to do so. I can be gung ho about unit numbers, but this was a bit much.

 

 

 

 

[Woapalanne 11]

The most active, dedicated Scouter I know - one who has been Scoutmaster, Cubmaster, led posts and ships, pioneered in Youth Protection, served at Summer Camp, led many merit badge sessions, been to a dozen Jamborees, absolutely LOVED by many Scouts (and their parents) - - has 17 knots on his uniform. Don't tell ME he is in it for the glory - because that would be an absolutely ignorant statement.

 

To say that lots of knots means they are not involved with Scouts shows ignorance of just what involvement means.