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cardinal50

Adults wearing uniforms to boost ego?

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acco40,

Aside from wearing the medal (just because I don't know what is meant by "recognized by the BSA." So is a Mentor Pin, but not authorized for uniform wear.), I'm in full agreement with your example.

We, as adults, have various reasons for doing what we do (and, therefor, earning what we earn). For others to assume we do it for recognition may or may not be correct, but it's not for others to judge any particular individual based upon their own theory or previous experience with someone else.

I'll also share an example (but not completely). I think the best example of a knot, for the sake of argument, is the James E West. Some refer to it as the "buy a knot award." There are numerous reasons for the knot to be presented to someone. Yes, it could be simply (if giving $1000 is a simple thing) a recognition for a donation. It could also be something given in honor for very personal reasons, and by someone very special to the recipient. It could well be someone's most prized knot because of the reason it was given. It's not for me or you or anyone else to judge the person wearing that knot.

BDPT00

 

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"I'll also share an example (but not completely). I think the best example of a knot, for the sake of argument, is the James E West. Some refer to it as the "buy a knot award." There are numerous reasons for the knot to be presented to someone. Yes, it could be simply (if giving $1000 is a simple thing) a recognition for a donation. It could also be something given in honor for very personal reasons, and by someone very special to the recipient. It could well be someone's most prized knot because of the reason it was given. It's not for me or you or anyone else to judge the person wearing that knot."

 

This is very true indeed. My James E. West knot may not be my most prized knot (there is no replacing the Eagle), but it ranks second. Here in my lodge, the lodge usually makes a donation to the endowment in the LC's name every year, thus awarding the LC the James E. West Fellowship Award. If the LC is on a second term, or already has the award for another reason, the donation is given in the name of an Arrowman youth who gives above and beyond to the lodge. This is how I received my knot.

 

Ever since I got into my career, I have made it my devotion to return that money every year, making a matching $1000 donation with the lodge as a way to give back to the program which helped me become who I am. That knot serves as a reminder to give back, not just monetarily, but with my time as well.

 

Sorry for getting a bit off topic, but you kind of struck a chord with me, lol.

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Vig,

The J.E.West Knot is one of those that can be abused. I've seen it where one person bought one for his entire family: Wolf Cub, Explorer daughter, wife, and himself. I saw it where one small council gave each Eagle one one year because A) the donor did not want any recognition and B) the council wanted to be #1 in J.E. West recipients in the region.

 

But I have also seen it where it was used to recognize the services of longstanding SMs, specifically a 25 and a 40 year SM. I've seen used to recognize outstanding youth, and used to honor the memory of deceased members and leaders.

 

Like anything it can be abused.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

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"The J.E.West Knot is one of those that can be abused. I've seen it where one person bought one for his entire family: Wolf Cub, Explorer daughter, wife, and himself."

 

Is that abuse? Didn't it cost the guy $4000?

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Bac,

Yes he plopped $4K down to get his wife, kids, and himself the J.E. West knot. And he did it specifically for the knots. This is also the guy who when he got inducted into the OA, stated he will be Vigil, and said his name would be XYZ. Nice guy, but I think he was in for th wrongreasons.

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Taken from the Scoutmaster's Handbook, 5th edition, 1959.

 

"While Scouters may wear the insignia to which they are entitled, a 'total display' may not be in the best taste if the uniform looks overdecorated. Unauthorized insignia or incorrect wearing of authorized insignia is always wrong. Scouters must set the example for Scouts in this matter. The Scoutmaster who wears only his Scoutmaster emblem, council or community strip, troop numeral, and service star on his uniform is never guilty of poor taste."

 

Also something worth noting, when this handbook was issued there were only 10 square knots available: Honor Medal, Silver Buffalo, Silver Antelope, Silver Beaver, Medal of Merit, Scoutmaster Key, Scouter Training Award, Eagle, Quatermaster, and Silver. At this time when you earned the Scoutmaster Key you took the Scouter training Award off. A decorated Scouter would have had maybe three knots.

 

I note the in British Scouting only one knot in a category is worn. If you are awarded Silver Wolf you take Silver Acorn off. I wouldn't mind seeing this either.

 

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"Well, I agree to a degree. We are a civilian organization but we are a uniformed civilian organization. A comparison might be the Catholic Church. Lay individuals, archbishops, diocesan bishops, Cardinals, Pope, decons, lay, etc. all have "uniforms" that they wear when doing "church stuff" so to speak. Are they egotists to wear their appropriate "uniform?" Does wearing "funny hats" make them more effective in their roles? In a way, it does."

 

This is not a good comparison. In the Catholic and Orthodox Churches there are rubrical laws that mandate what a bishop/priest/deacon wears and when. They have no choice in the matter.

 

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"Yes he plopped $4K down to get his wife, kids, and himself the J.E. West knot. And he did it specifically for the knots."

 

Send him over to our council. We love that kind of abuse.

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"Well, I agree to a degree. We are a civilian organization but we are a uniformed civilian organization. A comparison might be the Catholic Church."

 

Well, I would have compared us to other uniformed civilian organization then the Catholic Church, as the church volunteers don't wear 'uniforms'. Better to compare us to groups like the US Power Squadron, CGAuxiliary, CAP and the like.

 

 

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I've seen WB beading ceremonies at both Pack and Troop meetings, and the boys appeared to enjoy them. I was beaded while serving as CM, at the end of a Pack meeting. One of the dads of a Wolf Scout later told me his son said he was going to get his WB beads some day. If the boys love Scouting, I think they would enjoy hearing about Baden-Powell and the story behind the beads. And believe it or not, the boys like to see us receive an award now and then. We, as leaders, are part of the Troop. Yes, it is a program for the YOUTH (not children), but it won't work without adult membership. At Sea Base this summer, the boys insisted that I and the other adult take our turn on the tube, seeing if we could hang on. They enjoy the fact that we treat and respect them as young adults, and they recipricate by treating us as members of the crew, not just as chaperones.

 

At Summer Camp this year, one of our 14 year-olds asked me about the knots I wear. He promptly informed me that I needed to earn some more. I guess I don't have enough bling to suit his taste.

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Hmmmm.....

 

Some good food for thought here. As a relatively new Tiger and Wolf den leader, I was still able to fit into and wear my old scout shirt from the days of my youth....and I also left the national and international jambo patches on said shirt just because they reminded me of some good times I had back in the olden days. Guess I need to take those off now that I have been "promoted" to Cubmaster. Wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea.

 

Quaere. If during my scouting adventures I happen to see an adult scout leader wearing a campaign cover, should I do him a favor and knock it off his head while informing him that he looks like a foolish caricature of GySgt Carter and that wearing one is egotistical to boot? What say ye, Lord BadenP?

 

(This message has been edited by TenBears)(This message has been edited by TenBears)

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My version of the latest Scoutmaster's Handbook recommends that Scoutmasters limit the amount of badges placed on his uniform, to maintain an uncluttered appearance.

 

I suppose there is a point to that. I have a number of s/s shirts for summer camp that have just the basic CSP, numerals, position badge, and my Eagle knot. Since I have to hand sew, it definitely encourages me to limit the number of badges.

 

That being said, I don't think there is anything wrong with wearing everything you are entitled to. Not everyone who does that is necessarily a egotist, probably not even the majority who wear every knot they have earned are. Get to know the person first before judging them.

 

I do have a "Court of Honor" l/s shirt to which i am thinking of adding my Scouter's Key, Training Award, District AoM, etc. It might highlight to the boys that adults earn awards.

 

Our current Troop Committee Chairman works hard at Cub Day Camp, has attended summer camp and Council encampments with us. I am happy to see her in a Uniform with her Chairman badge, as that is the "official" position she fills, even though she does a lot more (a LOT more).

 

However, our previous TCC's never got involved at that level. None of the previous ones ever desired to wear the uniform. I expect most don't. But there are a few who love Scouting and continue involvement with youth, even if their current official position does not necessarily require it.

 

I remember our previous CSE had a HUGE number of knots on at least one of his uniform shirts. Yet, he was a pretty humble and quiet guy.

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"The J.E.West Knot is one of those that can be abused. I've seen it where one person bought one for his entire family: Wolf Cub, Explorer daughter, wife, and himself."

 

E92,

 

I do not see this as abuse. Abuse would be if the Vigil-wannabe wears the knot even though his check bounced and he hasn't yet made good on the transaction. I say let him buy all the the West knots he wants to buy. I do not see his actions hurting anyone except himself, but he will never notice because he will be too busy telling to look at his knot. In fact, Scouts are benefiting from his extremely huge ego. I would rather see him treat himself to a West knot than for him to buy himself a District Award of Merit or Silver Beaver. That would be abuse!

 

Chazz Lees

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chazz do you doubt he will buy himself a silver beaver???????

 

 

Oh it happens.

I think the line about unselfish service will kill his vigil chase.

 

Buying a wolf scout a $1k knot is ridiculous. That kid is gonna grow up 10X of screwed up.

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