What if we just completely did away with uniforms?

[Hal_Crawford 15]

Scouters at a laundromat? I am shocked! In our troop the adults usually hand wash socks, tee shirts and underwear mid-week and the scouts rarely wear all the clean clothes that they brought.

 

Hal

[BrentAllen 10]

Lisa,

Sounds to me like they were in full correct uniform - for summer camp, in their Activity Uniforms.

 

As has been mentioned many times before, uniforming is one of our methods. This is usually mentioned as an excuse for why a Troop isn't in full uniform. I take it at a different tack - I take it to mean your Troop looks uniform, whether it be in Field (Class A) or Activity (Class B) uniform. There are several reasons for and benefits of having this attitude, as well as lessons. If a Scout forgets his belt or socks or whatever, is he just as likely to forget some vital piece of equipment on a wilderness adventure?

 

The Army used to have the policy that if one member of a platoon forget a piece of equipment/uniform, they all had to leave it behind. For instance, if in winter the uniform called for gloves but someone forgot theirs, they all had to go without gloves. We don't take uniforming to that extreme, but there are similar lessons we are trying to teach - discipline, following directions, being prepared, making sure you have what you need, taking care of your equipment. These are all spin-offs from the uniforming method. Unfortunately, those of us who believe in this use of the method are simply labeled Uniform Police and written off as old frumps.

[mbrownkc7 10]

"Sometimes I think we here on this forum get hung up on the details and miss the big picture"

 

AMEN!

 

Who cares. If a boy wants to go full uniform and another wants to go with just a shirt and scarf, let it be. The program is not about the uniform. We can debate this all day but I don't think a boy gets more or less out of the program based on how he is dressed.

 

I was in scouts as a boy and am an Eagle Scout. I have now been in as an adult leader with two of my boys for 7 years and I can care less if my boy or any other boy wears gym shorts with his shirt and scarf. He is in the program because he is having fun and learning how to be a man.

 

I just hosted and mc'd an Eagle court two weeks ago and the boy getting his eagle didn't have a pair of olive pants or shorts that would fit him. He called me in a sort of panic and I told him not to worry about it. I asked him to wear the nicest pair of pants or shorts he felt looked good with his uniform and come in proud and accept the award he had worked hard for. He looked great and everyone was proud of his accomplishments. Not one person said a thing about his uniform.

 

Hey but if you like the full uniform, wear it with pride but don't tell me I am less of a Scout for not wearing a "Complete Uniform"!

 

 

[BrentAllen 10]

Who cares? Our founder certainly did. To quote him:

 

"Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I'll show you a poorly uniformed leader."

Lord Baden-Powell

 

"The correct wearing of the uniform and the smartness of turn-out of the individual Scout depends largely on his pride in himself and his Troop. This can be largely developed by the Patrol Leader encouraging his Patrol to outshine its neighbors in these respects, and each fellow plays the game to the best of his ability for the honor of the Patrol."

Lord Baden-Powell

(uniforming ties in with Patrol Method)

 

Who else?

Green Bar Bill.

"WEAR THE CORRECT UNIFORM CORRECTLY!"

 

"I recognize fully the values of the Uniform to my boys and my Troop," says the Scoutmaster, "and there is nothing in the world that I would rather see than every one of them smartly uniformed."

 

"Some time ago, two Scoutmasters started two Troops in South Brooklyn, NY, one of the poorest districts of that great metropolis. One had the attitude: "These boys are too poor to get the Uniform." He found that sentiment echoed in the Troop. The attitude of the other was: "We want to get the Uniform, don't we?" and the unanimous answer of his boys was "Yeah!" After one year the first Scoutmaster had a Troop without a single boy in Uniform, while the other after one-half year had his Troop completely uniformed."

Green Bar Bill

Scoutmaster Handbook, 3rd Edition

[BadenP 93]

 

Brent, "scouting is about building character and being ridiculed is just part of being a scout." Why Brent, if being ridiculed is a regular part of scouting then no wonder we are losing youth by the droves. Scouting is about a set of principles that make boys and girls grow into productive and caring people and leaders. The uniform does not shape the youth, it never has, the program does. There is no logical reason why the uniform has to look as "dorky" as it does, other countries scouting uniforms are much more practical and they are far less anal retentitive than we are with uniform rules.

 

The uniforms in the BSA are what they are because the adult leaders from scoutmaster all the way up to Mazzucca have never asked the boys what they wanted in a uniform and don't really care what they think or want.

[scoutldr 726]

Has anyone ever run into a Freemason dressed in full "regalia" at the grocery store or at work? Not being a mason, the only time I've ever seen one was at a funeral where they rendered Masonic "honors".

[BrentAllen 10]

BadenP writes:"The uniform does not shape the youth"

 

Sure it does - it teaches them to take some pride in the way they look, the way they present themselves.

 

I don't know of any Scout that is "regularly" ridiculed, but they most likely will be at some point in their Scouting careers.

 

When we visited Scouting units in South Africa, the Scouts there, boy youth and adults, were very impressed with our uniforms. The boys would gather around me and my son and ask questions about everything on them. Their opinion was our uniforms looked very sharp, very impressive.

 

Once again, I'll defer to Green Bar Bill:

The Values of the Scout Uniform

 

1. The Scout Uniform gives the boy a true sense of BELONGING. It submerges his self and makes him group conscious of his Patrol, his Troop, and the Boy Scout Movement.

 

2. It provides for true DEMOCRACY. With all boys in Uniform, the external differences between poor boys and rich boys disappear.

 

3. It continuously and persistently brings to the boy's mind the SCOUT IDEALS for which the Uniform stands and reminds him that he has promised to do his best.

 

4. It adds to the boy's ENJOYMENT of Scouting. The very design of the Uniform makes it possible for him to play the game strenuously, the way boys want to play.

 

5. It encourages ADVANCEMENT. A boy seeing Badges and Insignia blossoming forth upon the Uniform of a chum or member of his Patrol will want to earn them for himself.

 

6. It gives added opportunity for SERVICE. The Scout in Uniform is chosen for civic service projects before the Scout without one, because the Uniform itself adds to the boy's effectiveness in performing many services.

 

7. Earning the money with which to secure the Scout Uniform teaches a boy the invaluable lessons of THRIFT and PERSEVERANCE.

 

8. The ultimate acquisition of the Uniform establishes in a boy the feeling and sense of worthy OWNERSHIP, and encourages neatness and GOOD GROOMING.

Green Bar Bill, Scoutmaster Handbook

 

Argue with him, if you like.

[Eagle92 110]

Now don't be arguing with the "SM of the World!" IMHO, BSA started the downward spiral of uniforming A) with the ODLs, and B) makign the necker Optional and having two different ways to wear it.

 

Now I admit I do have mixed emotions on Venturing and creating their own uniforms. On one had it gives the youth to decide on what to wear, and sometimes their choices are better than the BSA's idea. Sometimes they take the easy way out and there isn;t really a uniform, but more of a dress code.

 

In reference to the new uniform, I think we all can agree that the zip offs overall are great, just a little expensive. The shirts have more problems, i.e ipod pockets, Swiss tabs too low on the LS versions, bellows pockets, no buttons that secure for temp insignia, price, made in China, etc. But overall I think it's an improvement. Oh and the green socks are more "fashion conscious" for today's youth, but I still don't like the stamping on the green and gray hiking uniform socks: the location on the foot makes them look like any old hiking sock and the stamp comes off.

 

[sarcasm on] Maybe I should by the Walmart knockoff version of the hiking uniform socks, they are exactly the same as the uniform ones, made buy the same company, and are half the price. Plus no one can tell if they are the real deal or not since no one looks at the foot of the sock if they are new, and the stamp comes off after a few washings [sarcasm off]

[GernBlansten 10]

I'll argue with him Brent.

"1. The Scout Uniform gives the boy a true sense of BELONGING. It submerges his self and makes him group conscious of his Patrol, his Troop, and the Boy Scout Movement. "

A funny hat like the Shriner's Fez accomplishes the same thing. YMCA camping shirt will do the same thing. No need for a correct and complete uniform down to the socks.

 

"2. It provides for true DEMOCRACY. With all boys in Uniform, the external differences between poor boys and rich boys disappear. "

Except now the uniform is more expensive than regular clothes. Only the rich have new, complete uniforms, the poor must scrounge with hand me downs, charity or substitute lookalikes. This made more sense back when clothing was expensive and there was a visual disparity between the rich and poor. Nowadays, you cannot differentiate the rich kids from the poor ones in the way they dress.

 

"3. It continuously and persistently brings to the boy's mind the SCOUT IDEALS for which the Uniform stands and reminds him that he has promised to do his best."

I just don't agree with this. Scouting Ideals better come from the heart, not the wrapping.

 

"4. It adds to the boy's ENJOYMENT of Scouting. The very design of the Uniform makes it possible for him to play the game strenuously, the way boys want to play. "

Please. Why do we shed the uniform when we get to camp for more practical clothing, only to change back for cerimonial activities. The uniform is NOT for play. Perhaps back in GBB day, the uniform was a rugged outdoors suit. Today, its for parlor scouting and parades.

 

"5. It encourages ADVANCEMENT. A boy seeing Badges and Insignia blossoming forth upon the Uniform of a chum or member of his Patrol will want to earn them for himself."

Perhaps, but a uniform is only one tool that can accomplish this. Its not the only tool.

 

"6. It gives added opportunity for SERVICE. The Scout in Uniform is chosen for civic service projects before the Scout without one, because the Uniform itself adds to the boy's effectiveness in performing many services."

Bunk. How does the uniform increase the boy's effectiveness?

 

"7. Earning the money with which to secure the Scout Uniform teaches a boy the invaluable lessons of THRIFT and PERSEVERANCE. "

Again, the uniform is one tool. So is paying their own way for adventure or camping equipment. The uniform has no special value here.

 

"8. The ultimate acquisition of the Uniform establishes in a boy the feeling and sense of worthy OWNERSHIP, and encourages neatness and GOOD GROOMING. "

Again, the uniform is one tool. The uniform has no special value here.

[BrentAllen 10]

Gern,

I know our council has a program to provide uniforms to families that really can't afford them. For most boys, it comes down to choice - and character. Does he want that new XBox 360 game, or a pair of Switchbacks?

 

Uniforming goes beyond just the Field Uniform. When we go camping, every Scout is in his Field Uniform shirt with his Troop t-shirt on underneath, along with Switchbacks or other Scout pants. As soon as we arrive at camp, the Field Uniform shirts come off and are hung in the vehicles - no need to mess them up. The boys are now in their Activity Uniform - Switchbacks and Troop t-shirt (wicking, not cotton). They have their long-sleeve BSA Action shirt as well. Green and tan. When the trip is over, the Field Uniform shirts go back on for the trip home. The Troop is Uniform. It's so simple, but some make it out to be impossible! The Supplex nylon pants, the wicking t-shirts, the nylon Action shirt are all made for the outdoors. They are some of the best camping clothes you can get, for the money.

 

Cost: Switchbacks - $50, or $25 each with they were BOGO

Troop wicking t-shirt - $15

BSA Action shirt - $15

Field Uniform shirt - $35 - $40

BSA Green socks - $6

Our Scouts easily get two years wear out of uniform, wearing it weekly. That is around $130 (most expensive from list above) for clothing for a two-year uniform, in a program that has a registration fee of $10. That breaks down to around $1.25/week. Show me any program that is this affordable. Most sports programs cost this much or more, and last only a couple of months. Cost is just an excuse.

 

But hey, take the same attitude of that other Scoutmaster in NY. Can't never could.

[GernBlansten 10]

So Brent, you admit that the very design of the Uniform makes impossible to play the game strenuously, the way boys want to play. They must substitute a troop designed uniform, one that only the troop has and no other BSA member. That's not uniforming in the sense that GBB intended.

 

Care to take on any other of GBB points I challeged?

[Hal_Crawford 15]

What is a "Field Uniform"? Don't think I have seen that term in BSA uniform guide.

 

I like that scouts have a uniform and I like that the new uniforms are approaching useful. I think that scout troops should strive to do their best to maintain uniform standards.

 

I do not like equating uniforming with character. A scout out of uniform may be many things but to say that he lacks character is going too far. Someone in this thread said that it is the heart not the wrapping. I agree.

 

Hal

[BrentAllen 10]

Hal,

The BSA used to describe and differentiate the uniforms as Field and Activity. They now use the terms Official and Activity, which is a little odd to me, since the Activity Uniform is also an Official uniform. See http://www.boyscouttrail.com/uniforms.asp for more info.

 

Gern,

I admit no such thing. The new supplex nylon shirt can be used for camping, we just choose to use the other officially authorized option. Most organizations have a "dress" uniform and another for activities - think USMC dress blues vs. BDUs. We use the same idea with our Scouting uniforms. This ain't rocket science.

 

I would argue every one of the points on the side of GBB. The boys have a feeling of pride in our Troop, a sense of belonging to our Troop family. I believe much of that comes from the uniforming (BELONGING).

 

The quarterly Honor Patrol competition includes uniforming and attendance. The boys don't want to let their Patrol mates down by showing up out of uniform. He tries to do his best (IDEALS).

 

Our boys come from extreme ranges of income - extremely rich to divorced single-parent families, some struggling. They all wear the same uniform - no one can tell which end of the spectrum they come from (DEMOCRACY).

As I have explained above, our Activity Uniform is great for camping. The materials dry out quickly. No cotton (ENJOYMENT).

 

The boys love recieving their badges at COHs, and love wearing their MB sashes. The uniform is one of the strongest pieces in promoting ADVANCEMENT.

 

Members of our community will bend over backwards to help a Scout with a project. Whether it is selling popcorn or collecting food, a Scout will be much more successful if he is in Uniform when doing so. (SERVICE)

 

If a Scout earns his own money to buy his Uniform, he will take much more pride in it. He will treat is with more respect - he knows if he trashes it, he will need to buy another one. It is a constant reminder of his THRIFT and PERSEVERANCE, as opposed to a monthly trip he took.

 

Knowing they need to tuck their shirt in and wear the belt properly teaches them GOOD GROOMING, much more so than wearing an untucked shirt over some gym shorts.

 

Can't never could.

[BrentAllen 10]

I missed one point. Gern wrote " They must substitute a troop designed uniform, one that only the troop has and no other BSA member."

 

Any Troop can use their own t-shirt or buy the Action shirt from Scoutstuff.org. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=APPAREL&c3=ASHIRTS&c4=&lv=3&item=615ASL

 

This is the shirt our first-year Scouts were wearing to Mountain Man at Woodruff. The other leaders were commenting on how nice the shirt was, and asked where we got it. I was surprised to hear their questions - we got them off the rack at our Scout Shop, and they are available for Scoutstuff.org, for a princely sum of $15.

 

So Gern, any BSA member can buy and wear them.

 

We get the wicking t-shirts from the local Army Navy surplus store, and have them printed with our Troop logo.

 

Now, please tell me your understanding of the Uniform Method. How does your unit use the Uniform Method to achieve the Aims and Mission of the BSA?

[BrentAllen 10]

Hal,

Character is defined as having moral or ethical strength.

 

When we join the BSA we agree to live by its policies, rules and regs. The rules and regs state the Official uniform can't be altered or changed. The Official Uniform consists of the Scout shirt, pants, belt and socks. Hat and neckerchief are optional. The Official Policy on Uniforming is listed on the inside cover of the Insignia Guide. It states "The leaders of Scouting - both volunteer and professional - promote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occassions."

 

So you have two Scouts, both know what the official uniform is, both know the policy. One is dressed in the complete correct uniform, the other is wearing just the Scout shirt, blue jeans, white socks, no belt. In your opinion, do both of these boys have the same degree of character? For the sake of this argument, please don't run down the "cost" rabbit hole. To end that argument, the Scout in the jeans is wearing brand new designer jeans and $100 tennis shoes.