Troop Uniform Policy?

[Merri 10]

Can a Boy Scout troop set its own uniform policy? My son's troop has decided that all boys and scoutmasters will wear identical zip-off convertible pants sold by Campmor. The troop will order them but scouts are responsible for the cost ($25).

 

Can they do this? My son has the official uniform pants and I'm annoyed at being told I must buy yet another pair of pants.

[scoutldr 732]

Short answer...NO.

[Eamonn 61]

Can they do this ?

It seems that they have!!

It isn't supposed to happen.

We have the official BSA Uniforms.

Lots of units have tweaked this.

Lots of units will continue to make whatever changes they seem to like.

But..

Yes there is a but.

If your son and members of the Troop were to attend a National event, like a National Jamboree they would be expected to wear the full and correct BSA uniform.

I feel that we might think about that before we do the tweaking.

The idea of a uniformed organization is that we have a uniform that is uniform!!

Of course the $25.00 pants are a lot cheaper than what the BSA is selling -So maybe the BSA needs to take a long hard look at the Campmor catalog?

Welcome to the forum.

Eamonn.

[Kudu 186]

Can they do this? My son has the official uniform pants and I'm annoyed at being told I must buy yet another pair of pants.

 

So you won't be spending $25 this month for pants for school or play that could just as easily be these Campmor zip-off convertible pants?

 

Unlike Official BSA Scout pants that can't be used for anything but hot house indoor meetings, our Scouts use their "Troop Activity Uniform" zip-offs for everything.

 

Most Troops provide fund-raising opportunities by which a Scout can earn money to buy Scout equipment.

 

Short answer...NO.

 

Short answer...YES!

 

For all practical purposes, there is no BSA rule that dictates a Troop's "Activity Uniform" Policy. However, it might be worth seeing what the BSA's official new zip-offs are like, even if they are more expensive. Unlike suppliers like Campmor, Wal-Mart, Target, REI, EMS, etc, the advantage buying from the BSA is that they will be official, and the style won't change every year. See:

 

http:/inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm

 

Kudu

 

[Eamonn 61]

I don't seem to remember ever reading or seeing anything in any BSA publications about a Troop Activity Uniform ?

While many units do go ahead and do their own thing. The wording that the BSA uses doesn't seem to allow much wiggle room:

"No alteration of or addition to the official uniform, badges, or insigniaor the rules and regulations concerning the wearing of the uniformis permitted.

Uniform parts should not be worn with other clothing.

Badges and other insignia should be worn only on the uniform (with the exception of a red patch vest that may be used to display temporary insignia) and only as directed by the Insignia Guide, BSA Supply No. 33066

 

Many happy hours have been spent by forum members discussing the pros and cons of the uniform that we have, the cost of the uniform, what the uniform method really is all about.

Even if there is enough wiggle room in the pants!!

Some one just e-mailed me a lot of photos taken over the last seven weeks at our Council Summer Camp. It would seem that the sale of official BSA pants and shorts are down in our area.

Still the Scouts seem to look happy and be having a good time.

The photos of the Sea Scouts who served on staff and wore their Sea Scout uniforms, show these Lads looking really sharp.

But I might just be a tiny bit biased. - I wonder why?

Eamonn.

(Welcome back Kudu)

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

Here is what the Scout Handbook has to say about the reasons for wearing the complete Scout uniform. (*the reasons only were copied.)

 

It is part of the thrill of being a Scout.

When you put it on, you feel ready for hiking, camping, and other Scout activities.

You will show that you are equals in the spirit of brotherhood.

It is a steady reminder to you and others that a Scout is a person who can be trusted to lend a hand when help is needed. Dressed as a Scout, you want to act as a Scout.

You will be recognized throughout the world as a Scout.

Uniforms build team spirit and are ideal for outdoor adventures.

Wear your complete uniform correctly and proudly at all Scouting events.

*Scouts involved in conservation projects may wear work pants or jeans with their Scout shirts.

 

It doesnt say anything about the Troop wearing the same kind of pants for Conservation projects but it is a possibility. Many Scouts may already have jeans, so purchasing another pair of expensive pants may be an extra cost that the Troop might want to avoid, since the Scout uniform is already quite the investment. FB

 

*I wanted to make a humourous note about my first spelling of Conservation. I spelled it Conversation projects. I suppose I should be wearing a pair of jeans, instead of the complete Scout uniform, just kidding of course. All I wear is a pair of workout shorts due to all of the exertion of typing.

 

[scoutldr 732]

The BSA uniform does not include pants from Campmor (yet). If the troop is doing this, then they are not "in uniform". If they want to wear the pants with a troop T-shirt, that's fine...but its not a BSA uniform.

 

If the troop leadership wants to do this, what's to keep them from tweaking other rules that they don't agree with?

[Beavah 205]

Hi Merri,

 

The proper answer to this question is that your son should be loyal and obedient, and follow the uniforming policy and practice of his troop, eh? That's what good scouts do.

 

Da other stuff is really for the SM, committee, and Chartered Organization to deal with using their best judgment. There can be all kinds of practical things you don't know about, like families who really can't afford the BSA-wear, or a troop's desire to wear uniform parts when traveling/in the field (both shorts and long pants), or a CO's ethic that disapproves of short shorts on men.

 

Until you're willing to become SM or serve in an equivalent role, your job is to support the people doing the hard work for your son. The advice you're gettin' here to go back and kick up a fuss with your unit's hardworkin' volunteers is just plain bad advice. It'll hurt your son's program and your relationship with the other adults who are important to him.

 

Dat's not worth it to save $25, eh?

 

 

 

 

[scoutldr 732]

I don't think anyone has said, "go back and kick up a fuss". We're just answering her question by stating BSA policy. What she chooses to do with the information is up to her.

[Eamonn 61]

Beavah

I don't see anyone in this thread suggesting that Merri "go back and kick up a fuss with your unit's hardworking' volunteers"

The question was "Can a Boy Scout troop set its own uniform policy?"

It seems to me that they have gone ahead and done so.

The $64,000 question is should they do so?

The correct answer is . No they should not.

Under the rules of the BSA this is not permitted.

IMHO, what this Troop is doing is worse than a Troop that doesn't have all the Scouts in full and correct uniform.

Hopefully the Troop that doesn't have full uniform still has uniforming as a goal.

This unit has opted to go with Cafeteria Style Scouting. They think they can pick and choose what they like from the program.

Supporting the "unit's hardworking' volunteers" is fine and dandy but when they are not playing by the rules how do we know when to say? "Hey this isn't right!"

When the unit decides that the Advancement program is wrong and they add a few more requirements?

How about when they disagree with the youth protection guide lines?

When I was a little fellow I attended one meeting of the local Boy's Club. Most of what they seemed to do had something to do with boxing. I really don't like people hitting me, so I never went back. I discovered that the Boy's Club wasn't my cup of tea.

Could it be that these hard working volunteers need to take a long hard look and see if belonging to the BSA is really their cup of tea?

Eamonn.

 

[FScouter 24]

The Scout uniform is defined by BSA, not by a PLC, a troop, adult leaders, or by a chartered org. Kick up a fuss whenever the adult leaders make up rules and policies that have no BSA support. How hard they work is not relevant if what they work at is not Scouting. Kicking up a fuss in support of Scouting is always the right thing to do.

[jmenand 10]

Talk about bad timing, Merri. Is your troop aware that the BSA is releasing official Zip-Off uniform pants later this month? They will be the same color green and everything!

[emb021 16]

"Can a Boy Scout troop set its own uniform policy?"

 

It depends on what you mean by 'uniform policy'.

 

The BSA has defined the basic scout uniform and the insignia and its placement.

 

What troops can do is:

 

*determine what, if anything, will be the troop neckerchief.

 

*determine what, if anything, will be the troop headgear.

 

*create a troop t-shirt for use as their activity (aka 'class B') uniform.

 

they can not decide to replace parts of the scout uniform as their full uniform (ie either the shirt or pants), nor come up with new placements for the insignia, or (in most cases) create new insignia items. (some kinds of new insignia is ok, but some troops cross the line).

 

 

[Kudu 186]

Eamonn writes:

 

I don't seem to remember ever reading or seeing anything in any BSA publications about a Troop Activity Uniform ?

 

Yes, and that is a good thing, Eamonn! Nobody in Irving Texas has sat down and figured out how to "regulate" Troop Activity Uniforms into something that Scouts don't want to wear :-)

 

While many units do go ahead and do their own thing. The wording that the BSA uses doesn't seem to allow much wiggle room:

 

There is always wiggle room, if you look at the sentences with the goal of following the letter of the law while intending to freely interpret the spirit of the rule :-/

 

"No alteration of or addition to the official uniform, badges, or insigniaor the rules and regulations concerning the wearing of the uniformis permitted.

 

This is from the Insignia Guide, and refers only to the official uniform, not a Troop's Activity Uniform.

 

Uniform parts should not be worn with other clothing.

 

I don't recognize this passage. If it does not appear in the Insignia Guide then it is not really official policy, no matter where it appears.

 

Badges and other insignia should be worn only on the uniform

 

Likewise, I do not believe that this appears in the Insignia Guide.

 

It so (with the exception of a red patch vest that may be used to display temporary insignia) and only as directed by the Insignia Guide, BSA Supply No. 33066

 

The idea that the red patch vest is the only exception is incorrect. The Insignia Guide lists the red patch vest as one of a number of different unofficial places for excess insignia, which in theory means that a Troop could buy their own nylon tan shirts, affix official BSA insignia, call them "patch blankets" and wear them with their Campmor pants :-)

 

Some one just e-mailed me a lot of photos taken over the last seven weeks at our Council Summer Camp. It would seem that the sale of official BSA pants and shorts are down in our area.

 

I bet the majority were wearing jeans! That is why "Uniform parts should not be worn with other clothing" would never be enforced, even if it were official policy. Many people would simply skip summer camp and Camporees. Jeans and a Scout Shirt are the default universal Uniform, at least in this part of the country. Personally, I am against wearing jeans with a Scout shirt.

 

Fuzzy Bear writes:

 

Uniforms build team spirit and are ideal for outdoor adventures.

 

That is more true of the Activity Uniform of Merri's Troop than the BSA Uniform.

 

*Scouts involved in conservation projects may wear work pants or jeans with their Scout shirts.

 

That directly contradicts "Uniform parts should not be worn with other clothing," doesn't it? :-) I doubt if either statement is official policy, because they are not well thought out. If you can wear jeans on conservation projects, why not other community service projects, or for that matter outdoor Scouting activities where the BSA does not expect the official Uniform to be worn? The BSA Website and handbooks are not the final authority. If you look at the Scouts wearing hit pins in the official Boy Scout Handbook, for instance, you will see that they are ALL wearing the adult hat pin.

 

Eamonn writes:

 

IMHO, what this Troop is doing is worse than a Troop that doesn't have all the Scouts in full and correct uniform.

 

IMNSHO, this Troop represents what is good about grass-roots Scouting.

 

When I wear my BSA Uniform in public, I am sometimes complimented for my stand against Gays, the Godless, and people who burn the American flag. Like it or not, for many people the BSA Uniform has become a symbol of the Religious Right's political agenda.

 

I believe that in every debate about the Uniform, you have have two camps. At the extreme of one end of this spectrum are those who view Scouts who find the Uniform dorky, unpractical, and twenty years out of date, as disrespecting the adult's deeply held beliefs in favor of discrimination. Why else are they so emotional? These adults tend to see wearing the Uniform primarily as enforcement of the Scout Laws of Obedience and Loyalty.

 

At the other end of the spectrum are people like me who believe that since the BSA discarded the Uniform as a Method of Scouting in 1972, and then resurrected it in the 1980s as the unholy indoor hothouse creation of a dress designer, they have not understood that the significance of the Uniform as a Method is as an icon of outdoor adventure that boys actually want to wear.

 

I freely admit I am on this extreme end of the spectrum. I agree with William Hillcourt that Scouts should wear a Uniform at all times when they are Scouting. The Uniform is an outdoor method. If the official BSA uniform is second rate and over-priced, then we have to do what we must to provide our Scouts with an appropriate Troop Activity Uniform.

 

Whenever I spend time with senior executives from Irving Texas, I wear my Troop's Activity Uniform, and when possible I "kick up a fuss" and press them on the issue. I have been surprised to find that some of the executives at the very highest levels of the BSA agree with me. Now that they are releasing official nylon zip-off pants, with any luck this issue will be resolved and we can move on to an outdoor nylon Uniform shirt.

 

But what will Scouters on the Religious Right do if Scouts actually want to wear the official BSA Uniform? Or at the last minute will the BSA snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and find some way to make nylon zip-offs repulsive and unwearable?

 

The answer is only weeks away!

 

Kudu

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

There is some validity to the Bevs point. We should pick our battles, prioritize what is worth fighting and dying for, watch our back, set our sights on winning the war, etc. We should also think about it as a type of ethical dilemma as well. We should ask ourselves if what we are doing will hurt someone or put somebody in a position that will cause them undue hardship.

 

This makes me think about a conversation I overheard the other day. It went something like this.

 

We will now ask the difficult question,

Lost asks, Would there be any hardship put on a Troop or individual within a unit if the unit decided to wear the official Boy Scout uniform?

 

No wait lets make it even more difficult

 

Lost extends, say that 50% of the Scouts could not purchase the complete uniform in a unit, wouldnt that even be more of an undue hardship?

 

Lost questions, Where do we possibly go from here?

 

BSHB, Lets try Thrifty?

 

Lost asks, How does that Law apply, anyway? Are you trying to use subterfuge?

 

The Scout handbook may help us

BSHB, A Scout is Thrifty. The Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for the future. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property. Paying your way gives you independence and pride. When you dig into your own pockets to buy a Scout uniform (and other things), you learn the real value of those items. You will also learn to take care of them.

 

Lost, But, that is a tall order, buy a uniform, help others, save money, protect and conserve. That is too much to ask of an eleven year old. There are no jobs and the boys are too young to work most jobs, what do we do now, Mr. Smartypants, BSHB?

 

BSHB, Did you consider the Troop or District Uniform Closet, did you?.

 

Lost, We dont have one of those, should one be started?

 

BSHB, We have discussed attrition in Scouting on many occasions at length right here in this Forum. Where do all of those unused uniforms go anyway? Dont most people throw them away, give them to Good Will or sell them in garage sales? Couldnt we get people to throw them in the Uniform Closet when they exit? We would just need to let everyone know about what we are doing and keep reminding them.

 

BSHB, I could go on with the Methods of Scouting, Leadership skills, WB skills, and the Aims of Scouting to let you know more ways to achieve Scouting goals but this should suffice.

 

BSHB, You are not being taxed unfairly when you decide to use the Boy Scout program. The uniform is just one part of a whole lot of things that a Scout will learn about. Numerous surmountable challenges are intentionally set so that each Scout that comes this way will learn many useful things, Thrift is just one of them. The BS Uniform is another.

 

BSHB, It is a fun program, filled with things that are rich and subtle. There are Adventures galore, trust me.