Camoflauge

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Our troop has a policy againsr wearing Camo with the Field Uniform, while its ok with the Activity uniform. This came about when our scoutmaster wanted to ban camo. We had a Committee discussion which got a little heated, probably because I said I thought the idea of banning camo was "stupid", didnt realize I verbalized the statement until I saw the Scoutmasters reaction. Well we worked up the compromise and its been ok.

 

One note though, over the years I have noticed an interesting phenomona, you take a seemingly normal kid, have him show up in a complete Camo outfit (though NOT imatation military uniform)and some kids have a personality change. Now they think they are invincible and do things they wouldnt in every day garb. At times I have contemplated reversing my view on Camo based on the kids reactions to wearing it. This attitude when wearing camo may just be a local thing, but its enough have me review the situation, but not change it, yet

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" I have been taught by military instructors in a long past training course, that it's a violation of the U.S. Code (please don't ask me which section/chapter, I don't have the U.S. Code at my house, or in my office for that matter) for civilians to wear military uniforms with the insignia on them"

 

That's what I thought for years but according to my JAG connections that isn't the case unless the person uses such uniform to attempt to gain access to a restricted facility. However, my neighbor could dress up as an Admiral and go to the corner watering hole and tell war stories all night long. The only repercussions would be what the real vets did to him when discovered the fraud.

 

How authortative is that? Well, he didn't give me chapter and verse but he's been practicing military law for 20 years so should have a clue.

 

If he's wrong, I'd like a citation so I could say, "nyah, nyah! You were wrong about something."

 

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"First, even if somebody came up with an authoritative reference that said they were okay, why would any of us condone, let alone encourage it?"

 

As a practical matter we allow Scouts to wear Dockers and jeans with their uniform shirt. Why not BDU trousers?

 

If you're tramping around in the woods, BDU pants make sense. The BDU jacket (or do they call it a shirt?) is great for being out doors since it has all those big pockets.

 

Personally, I don't care much for camouflage unless you actually need to hide. That's why I find it amusing that Army and Air Force computer weenies and clerk typists wear BDUs instead of an undress uniform like sailors did back in my day. I think that sailors those situations still wear the undress uniform instead of dungarees when ashore.

 

I think that if you want to wear BDU pants instead of Scout pants, get a pair in OD.

 

I just started this thread because I was looking for an answer.

 

BTW, I've seen many, many used uniforms in surplus shops with all insignia attached.

[hops_scout 9]

There is a kid at school who has worn a BDU shirt to school for a while now which says" US Marines" and has the emblem on the pocket. I notified him that he was not a Marine and that what he was doing was illegal. He just kind of shrugged and it didnt bother him a bit. I wear that stuff, but the only patches, etc that I own are not on any of it. I plan to soon purchase a set of OD BDU stuff.

[KoreaScouter 13]

My JAG can beat up your JAG, even if he doesn't have his own TV show. Different lawyers have different opinions. This is like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

What Scouts do (wear dockers with their shirts) and what we as leaders should be modeling and encouraging can be two entirely different things, and apparently are in this case.

 

I'm sure there are surplus stores with uniforms for sale that haven't been de-milled...doesn't make it right.

 

KS

[Fat Old Guy 11]

KS, as Ben Stein would say, "I bow to your superior knowledge" and I'm now going to visit my JAG buddy, smack him in the head and make him buy me a beverage or six made from hops and barley because not only do I hate being wrong, I hate having bad gouge and distributing that same bad gouge. I did some poking around and found that you were right, my original thoughts were right and the JAG was wrong, makes you wonder how he made it to Commander . . . .

 

Federal laws concerning the wear of the United States Military uniforms by people not on active duty are published in the United States Code (USC).

 

Specifically, 10 USC, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 45, Sections 771 and 772.

 

Section 771 states:

 

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear -

 

(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or

 

(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps

 

Section 772 lists some exceptions:

 

(a) A member of the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard may wear the uniform prescribed for the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard, as the case may be.

 

(b) A member of the Naval Militia may wear the uniform prescribed for the Naval Militia.

 

© A retired officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title and wear the uniform of his retired grade.

 

(d) A person who is discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may wear his uniform while going from the place of discharge to his home, within three months after his discharge.

 

(e) A person not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title, and, when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform, of the highest grade held by him during that war.

 

(f) While portraying a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion-picture production may wear the uniform of that armed force if the portrayal does not tend to discredit that armed force.

 

(g) An officer or resident of a veterans' home administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs may wear such uniform as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe.

 

(h) While attending a course of military instruction conducted by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, a civilian may wear the uniform prescribed by that armed force if the wear of such uniform is specifically authorized under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned.

 

(i) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the Air Force may prescribe, a citizen of a foreign country who graduates from an Air Force school may wear the appropriate aviation badges of the Air Force.

 

(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category:

 

(1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

(2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department

 

I find the highlighted section interesting. I suppose it was put in there because the original BSA uniform were Arym castoffs.

 

 

 

"What Scouts do (wear dockers with their shirts) and what we as leaders should be modeling and encouraging can be two entirely different things, and apparently are in this case."

 

I can count the number of Scouter that I know who are fully uniformed on my hands, even counting those who wear any shade of green on their lower half.

[Proud Eagle 13]

I find that last bit in F.O.G.s post to be highly unfortunate. I don't mind if someone decides to where non-official pants or shorts similar to the BSA uniform versions. I don't mind if a new Scout doesn't have a complete uniform yet. I can even excuse inexperienced Scouters, and all adults in cub scouting from having uniform pants/shorts. I cannot excuse veteran adults in the Boy Scout program for having poor uniforming. Certainly there are times the official uniform is not functional and so it should not be worn. However, I have noticed that just since I have been involved at the Boy Scout level, the degree to which the uniform is worn by both Youth and Adults has decreesed. I personally don't know quite how to go to a Scouting event not in some kind of uniform. (Over the summer the SM for my troop decided to swich to "B's" [activities] uniform for the remainder of the summer meetings. I continued to show up in full "A's" for a couple of weeks, just out of habit.) I guess I am a farely rare commodity these days. I am a Scouter that has two uniform shirts, two pairs of official shorts, one pair of official pants, more caps, bolos, and neckerchiefs than I know what to do with, and even an official campaign hat (headgear of choice for me in most weather/climate conditions); and I actually wear them.

 

Uniforming was stressed by both senior youth leadership and adults when I joined my troop. You didn't show up at a board of review expecting to advance in rank unless you were fully uniformed, and were prepared with your handbook, notebook, and writing utensil. My uniforming standards changed as I went through scouting. At some point I dropped neck wear. I think that was when I was SPL and I noticed I was the only youth or adult wearing any. Then I started using bolo ties and have been ever since. I always believed that uniforming was expected of Scouts and Scouters, and especially expected of leaders. Now, not even a full decade later, I rarely see troops in full uniform. When leaders stop be a good example of uniformed Scouts, don't expect the Scouts to be any better. When the leaders constantly excuse every poor uniforming practice, expect the scouts to slack off even if the leaders set an example.

 

I do think the BSA needs to change the current uniforming scheme. I think there should perhaps be two true nationally produced and widely worn uniforms. (maybe even designate them as As and Bs.) Perhaps a field utility uniform and a dress uniform. I would certainly not mind having a somewhat dressier uniform for formal occasions such as COH, BOR, dinners, and the like. (In my council the SE clearly agrees since he has all the DE's wear the very strange looking dress uniform to council dinner. Scouts and Scouter wear BSA uniform, and others usually wear a suit. This really does not seem right because I wouldn't consider the BSA uniform to be equivelant to a business suit.) I would also prefer a somewhat more practical uniform for wearing in the "field". Something that could stand up to the riggers of patrol games at camporees, and be useable for even backpacking trips. I really don't consider the "activities uniform" to be a true uniform. (i.e. I don't salute in activities uniform.) None of these changes are likely to happen because no one wants to buy all new uniforms. Especially if they had to have two new uniforms. We should remember that B-P chose the original uniform because of its combination of ready availability, low cost, utilitarian attributes, and sharp appearence. Today we have a relatively sharp looking uniform of intermediate price that is available from only one supplier. It is without a doubt too expensive, not durable enough, and generally unfit for use during most physical or outdoor activities. The military equivalent would be if the Army got rid of BDUs, and class A, and instead attached every thing you can think of to the class B and still expected soldiers to wear them in field, at their desks, and during ceremonial functions. I wonder what B-P's take on today's uniform woud be. I really don't know.

 

NOTE TO PARENTS:

Don't wait until your son is about to have his Eagle board or Court of Honor to buy long Scout pants. Certainly it is a considerable expense and is not needed immediately by most Scouts. I also know you may be worried about stains or other damage if you buy them before they are needed. Consider this however, you can buy a $45 pant for two occasions and have them look perfect, or you can buy a $45 pant for a couple of years worth of events and maybe there will be a small stain here and there. I know what the better choice to make is. Now that I have long pants I wear them to almost all meetings and even during many camp outs.(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" I really don't consider the "activities uniform" to be a true uniform. (i.e. I don't salute in activities uniform.)"

 

It is a uniform for the same reason that dungarees are a uniform in the Navy that reason being the people that make the decisions say it is. Go ahead and salute.

 

" I cannot excuse veteran adults in the Boy Scout program for having poor uniforming."

 

Possibly the poor uniform is a function of our society. I went to a wedding yesterday and there were adults, real grown ups with grandchildren, there in jeans and polo shirts. Business has gone to "casual" and very few have served in the military and I find that many ex-military seem to have contempt for the idea of the uniform.

 

 

[mk9750 11]

Fog,

 

I find that some of the things I see on this forum make me feel that my Troop is very odd. Your comment about the number of people wearing complete uniforms is one of them.

 

I just tried to do a mental picture of what I saw at our last Troop meeting, and who was there.

 

We had 31 of 32 Scout at the meeting. 30 of 31 had their complete uniform on correctly (we do have a couple of boys who wear temporary patches incorrectly. I'm not counting them as out of uniform).

 

We had a Scoutmaster and 7 ASMs at the meeting. One of the ASMs arrived late, directly from work, and he was out of uniform. The other 6 ASMs and the SM were in complete uniform, less neckwear. Our adults wear the olive tie for CoHs, but are opened collared for all other events.

 

Two of the Committee Members (myself and one other gentleman) regularly wear complete uniforms, and both of us did last Tuesday. There were 3 other committee members in attendence.

 

So the totals:

 

30 of 32 potential youth in complete uniform.

6 of 7 adult leaders in complete uniform

2 of 5 committees members in complete uniform

 

38 out of 44 potential uniforms in attendence.

 

I have no idea what we do differently than your unit, or those that you know of that don't wear their uniform regularly. I know that when anyone comes into our meeting room without their uniform, junior leadership is very quick to ask why. And they're not very particular who it is. A few weeks ago, they suggested that the SM had time to go home and change when he came directly from work. And they were serious. And he did go and change.

 

I have seen the SM ask a boy who had approached him for a SM confernece at a campout to wait a few minutes, and the SM emerged from his tent with complete uniform on.

 

SM conferences and BORs are not provided unless a boy has his complete uniform on. We've had boys borrow uniform parts from each other if they forgot something in order to do a confernece or Review.

 

And the PLC makes uniforms one of the judging criteria they use for our Honor Patrol contest. The contest won't start for another couple of weeks, but I think the results above may be a testament to how well the method works.

 

ON THE OTHER HAND, I've got to tell a quick (for me, at least) story supporting your point. We had a new District Commisioner who was intent on shoring up the Commisioner corps. After years of never having seen a commisioner, our new commish accepted an invitation to a CoH, and was asked to say a few words. He sat with the adult leaders at the front of the room as the flag ceremony started. He had on an open collared Scout shirt, and jeans. As I mentioned, all of our adults wear complete uniforms with ties to CoHs. The Scouts came in during their flag ceremony, looking like $0.25 short of a million bucks. When the Commisioner spoke, he talked about how embarassed he was after seeing our Troop not to own a pair of Scout pants. We haven't seen him since.

 

Mark

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

I'm sure people here get tired of me saying, "back when my son played baseball"....but here I go again. Hey, it's been a while since I used the line. I know that the uniform is a method of scouting and that it is not "required". We want the boys to wear it out of choice, pride and a sense of belonging. That being said, the same thing applies to a sports uniform. The only difference is that the coach can and does require it or you sit on the bench. Even at 7 years old, our boys knew they had better not show up without a belt or hat if they wanted to play. They also knew that they didn't have their shirttail hanging out or their hat on backwards. We never had a problem with anyone abusing our uniform policy......at 7 years old! Uniforming starts at the top down. Adult leadership and boy leadership. Peer pressure can be a wonderful thing sometimes. The boys will rise to the expectations of the crowd. When you are the only one or two or three out of uniform and see everyone else wearing it with pride, it usually gets you in gear and uniform. Hey, it is a lot harder to be spotted as a geek when you are surrounded by a bunch of other geeks! There is power in numbers.

[Bob White 20]

The BSA asks three things of adult leaders regarding uniforms.

 

1. Set a good example

2. Use the uniform as a method of teahing specific values.

3. Follow the uniform rules established and controled by the BSA.

 

That's all. The BSa does not require a full uniform. But it does require us to not set artificial uniform controls within the unit. Each member's goal should be working toward a more complete and correct uniform. If the unit says that everyone can wear jeans, or BDUs or camo, or similar color dress panta, you are setting uniform guidelines that you have no authority to set.

 

Do not punish scouts for incomplete uniforms, and do not set your own uniform rules it's not your job to do that. Instead lead scouts to full, correct uniforms.

 

Bob White

[fgoodwin 23]

I meant to post this back in October, but never got around to it; here's a letter from the Oct 2005 issue of "Scouting":

 

=====================

 

NO 'CAMOUFLAGE' UNIFORMS

 

My troop participated in a joint troop service project last spring, and...another troop [had] its members wearing full camouflage clothing, with the striking appearance of being members of the U.S. Army rather than Boy Scouts.

 

Our congressional charter prohibits Scouts appearing as a paramilitary unit [which is why we have] the restriction against wearing any form of camouflage "clothing."

 

Daniel Ketcham

Scoutmaster, Troop 855

Executive Board Member, Golden Empire Council

Cedar Ridge, Calif.

 

According to the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA No. 57-492), under "Insignia, Uniforms, and Badges," Clause 4(b) states: "Imitation of United States Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of the organization's Charter."

 

http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0510/d-lett.html

 

=====================

 

Whether or not this answers the question is up to you to decide.(This message has been edited by fgoodwin)

[LongHaul 10]

Im against wearing camo during scout activities only because it tends to be used to replace the actual uniform. I dont find the scout uniform objectionable. But I dont understand why we feel those who do want to wear camo are trying to imitate the military? If the military wears something then if I wear it Im trying to be military? I regularly wear a cartridge belt with two 1 quart canteens and 2 first aid kits when we hike. All of it U.S. Army issue. Im not trying to look cool just being practical, the cartridge belt serves the purpose I need filled. I used a military issue paratroopers pack at Philmont third time around. I needed a pack and this one was available, I knew darn well it would stand up to the load and punishment I was going to give it. Just because its used by the military doesnt necessarily mean those using it are trying to emulate the military.

One thing about camo that has always confused me is its use by hunters. Ive hunted in Wisconsin to help put food on the table for my relatives who live and operate a farm. When we deer hunt we are in the brightest orange we can get our hands on. The idea is that deer are colored blind and cant tell the difference between flame orange and green. BUT when we bow hunt we are in camo, to the extent we hang netting over our faces! Deer we kill with a bow have better color distinction? Never understood that one.

LongHaul

 

[fgoodwin 23]

I know this is a very sensitive issue for many Scouters, either retired or active military and / or hunters.

 

I think Mike Walton can say it much better than I can, so I will cite to him. Between his comments and those in "Scouting" magazine, I'm not sure how much more can or need be said.

 

Other than this: those who want to wear camo or BDUs will do so regardless of what anyone says, so its rather pointless to give this URL, but I said I would, so here goes:

 

http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/camo.htm

[hops_scout 9]

Within a year we won't have these problems of "imitating the military" because the Air Force is the only Branch that will still be wearing the Woodland BDU's which seem to be the most popular ones by other people including myself.

 

Long, I think the netting probably serves to keep them from noticing movement. Like your eyes blinking or that kind of thing. Bow hunting (never done it personally, but do know a little bit about) I believe you have to get quite a bit closer than you do with a rifle or shotgun therefore they could notice little movements like that.