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First Class in 5 months

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Is there a rule, law or phrase which describes an Internet debate in which the participants are all arguing based on different assumed hypothetical facts? If not, do I get to name it?


I suppose there is a case to be made that all Internet debates are made on such a basis.

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Yah, TwoCubDad, feel free to put a name on da thing!


Callooh Callay, yeh lost me.


First, this thread is about a troop where every boy got to First Class in five months with da troop only campin' quarterly. Not just one exceptional lad.


If that one exceptional lad has burned through all those ranks in that space of time, he has to also have met all the citizenship and Scout Spirit and Ideals Method requirements, eh? So I don't get da comments about only bein' an outdoor club. Through sports or family or church he must have internalized da Scout Oath and Law and his rights and responsibilities as a citizen and his knowledge of respect for da flag and all the rest.


I reckon we're all agreed that if da planets align it is possible for da one out of a thousand exceptional lad in a weaker one-and-done program to get First Class. Provided perhaps that he doesn't have to take his turn as a cook or whatnot, and instead always goes first.


That's fine, I suppose. The lad has gotten an award and a brief introduction to Scouting. But he hasn't really learned much from scouting. If he were to then take off and do somethin' else because he's met his goal and "there are other things to learn elsewhere", I'd think that Scoutin' failed the lad. We didn't substantively impact his life at all. We gave him a patch, but we didn't help him a lick on da next steps he needed to grow into a man and a participatory citizen.


Yah, yah, yeh can rush through advancement if yeh have adults who don't understand da program. Yeh can do it by subtractin' from da requirements in a one-and-done fashion or by focusin' all of da lad's and the adults' energy on the one method. That's not Scouting. Scoutin' uses a bunch of Methods, together, in concert. Da other Methods all take contact time in order to work their magic. Outdoors, Ideals, Adult Association, Youth Leadership, Personal Growth, identifyin' with da Uniform - they all take time. We're one of da finest character-building organizations around because we take that time, eh? We spend a lot of years with boys at their most impressionable, not just a season.


A boy for whom Advancement is such a strong drivin' force is why da Method exists, eh? But that lad needs us as adults to link the advancement to the other 7 methods, because he most often he can't do it himself. Our goals aren't to teach him how to get recognition. Our goals are to develop deeper habits by linking recognition to other things, until eventually those lads who start out questing for recognition instead quest to be caring leaders, committed citizens, upstanding and Godly family men. They move from seekin' to meet an external goal and get advancement to a habit of workin' for internal goals and seekin' growth. That takes time, and puttin' advancement in its place as part of a broader program for the boy.




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This kind of thing is obviously a goal set by adults, not boys.


I would expect that adults analyzed the book to see how fast and efficiently it could be done with a minimum of extraneous camping trips and "fun." Then engineered the program to frog march Scouts to the goal.


I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this continued until boys are carried in to the Eagle nest at something less than age 13.


Frankly, I don't think it's much of a program. But if that's what parents want for their children --- help yourself.

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"First, this thread is about a troop where every boy got to First Class in five months with da troop only campin' quarterly. Not just one exceptional lad."


Gee, I thought the other thread was about a Troop where every boy got to First Class in five months. I thought THIS thread was about whether it was even possible for someone to get to First Class in 5 months if a Troop only camps quarterly, and I believe I have answered that question - the rest is just the way our virtual campfires always seem to go so I think its fair game to discuss either the situation from the other thread or just one exceptional lad.



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Thanks, Beav, but I've thought about it and I really don't want the process of everyone arguing past each other named after me. :)


But as to this thread, I'm still not sure if we're supposed to be talking about one kid or a whole group.


Thread 1.1

The issue with the uber-Webelos is an adult problem. As great as it may have been, as much fun as it was, that Webelos leader wasn't running a Webelos program. I'm not going to say he should have scaled back, but he dang-well should have been looking ahead. Isn't that why we all take New Leaders Essentials and get an overview of the total program?


The loss of those Scouts to boredom, Barry, was more the fault of the Webelos program than the troop. Sure, it would have been nice if the troop could have been nimble enough to accommodate them, (and if you were involved I'm sure you did), but that's a pretty big pig for the snake to swallow. I imagine many troops could accommodate such a Webelos class IF they know what's coming. Over the years, we've developed a first-year program which we feel really works for most new Scouts. But we don't TOUCH Tenderfoot requirements for the first two months. We spend those first 6 or 7 weeks getting the boys ready for their first two campouts. A group of new Scouts who are all two years ahead of the curve will require a major adaptations in our program.



Thread 1.2

How do you tell a individual kid no?


"Yeah, you could stay behind and work on lashings, but I really think you should go on the hike with your patrol."


"Who wants work on that stuff. Come over here and let me show you my new fly rod."


"If your PL already has the duty roster set for this weekend, I don't think it's fair to ask the other guys to dump their plans just so you can do your First Class cooking."


"Do you ever watch Survivor Man? I'll bet a bowl of cobbler than no one in this patrol can build a survival shelter and spend the night in it."


"Sunday morning is a bad time for your Scoutmaster conference, I have other plans. How about during the campout week after next."


"I think the rest of the guys are headed down to the waterfront. Why don't you go with them?"


"This is patrol time. You need to be helping your patrol, not working on advancements"


"While a patrol campout is a GREAT idea, sleeping in you backyard and cooking for one other guy doesn't really count. The requirement is to serve as PATROL cook. There is more to it than just making burgers. There's the teamwork and leadership and spending time time with your buddies over a great meal. You just won't get that experience with you and Tommy out by the trampoline."


"I'm sorry, but your leaf collection from the 5th grade doesn't count. Part of the idea behind the requirement is getting out in the woods, enjoying the outdoors and seeing the plants in their native environment. Besides, most of the leaves in your collection are non-native landscape plants. Yep, doing it in the winter will be more difficult."


"In Boy Scouts your patrol leader, one of the senior guys or a scoutmaster has to watch you do it and sign it off. You mom's note doesn't really count. I don't think Webelos worked that way either."




"You know Danny, I really want the best for you. I want you to be interested in Scouting for a very long time and get a whole lot out of the program and have all sorts of great, fun experiences. I've been doing this a long time and watched a lot of Scouts. My experience is the boys who rush through the requirements don't tend to stay around. Sure, everyone has a goal of making Eagle, but the guys who make Eagle at 13 or 14 mostly don't stay around much longer after that. And the guys who get to Life very early tend to drift away for several years even if they finally decide to come back at 17 and finish Eagle.


"I don't want that for you. I want you to be here, having fun, learning things and being a leader in the troop right up 'til your 18th birthday. Then you get to be an ASM. You and I need to figure a way you can do that without focusing so much on advancement. We need to find some things in which you can excel. So tell me about the things in Scouting you really enjoy and are good at....."


I don't think I actually used the "N" word.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

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