SM Sabatoges Eagle Project?

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmm...

 

I'm goin' to give my response here, echaney. NACAP can come back in and disagree if he likes.

 

"Youth Protection Issues" in the BSA refers to things related to the physical (typically sexual) abuse of children and other stuff that rises to that level of seriousness. Yeh don't want to be throwin' that flag unless yeh really mean it.

 

These days, things like "hazing" and "bullying" and such have real legal definitions as crimes in many states. Accusing an adult leader of a crime against children is a very serious thing. Again, if yeh are goin' to throw that flag, yeh better really mean it. Because accusin' an adult of crimes against children when it isn't true is defamation of character, for which you are are morally and financially liable.

 

No, nothing you have reported here is anywhere near a Youth Protection or bullying issue. It's a disagreement about an extracurricular project. The advice that NACAP just gave yeh is poor.

 

Again, it's time to let go. As hard as it is as a parent when yeh feel someone has wronged your kid, he's not a member of that old troop any more. That door has closed. Other doors have opened. From what yeh report, your son is bein' smart and looking ahead. Yeh should join him there and not look back. Find a new troop. Join a crew. Move on to a new scoutin' chapter.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[moosetracker 132]

Yeah to Bnelon.. If this was repetitive put downs over a period of time then probably I would agree with you.. ...any behavior that is deliberate, hurtful, repeated over time... This seems to be a lash out on a single disagreement.. Also something like that took 3 seprate people making 3 seperate complaints over a period of time.. (At least per my Council..).. They don't act on verbal abuse as quickly as they do physical or sexual abuse..

 

I was in a troop where a scout master was removed, but the DE said he needed 3 seprate complaints, and I was complaint #1.. It took about 1.5 years and two more complaints and he was removed.. It took consistant behavior to different scouts for the council to come in to investigate.

[Twocubdad 665]

Yep, time to let go.

 

Your boy is out of the troop and it sounds like most of the membership is (hopefully) moving on to another or a new troop. Based on my training with the new appeals process, it seems likely to me that his project will be approved.

 

As you describe it, the SM's behavior is at best childish. I don't see a YP issue here either. But the folks at council are aware of his behavior by way of the advancement/appeals process.

 

My advice to you is to keep this as positive for your son as possible. Don't let him -- and don't you -- get wrapped around the axle prosecuting this. Adults make mistakes and get off track, but make sure your son sees that other adults are there to make it right. Ultimately, the system works.

 

You don't mention how old your boy is, but try to get him involved in a new unit. Don't let this be his last experience in Scouting.

[NACAP 10]

Yep..I disagree given echaney's posting of other unspeakable things (undefined) and the BSA defining bullying as deliberate and hurtful. If the scout left the troop over his treatment and if this guy is to the point that others are walking out, then maybe he is bullying. He is in the power position over the youth.

 

Disagreement over an extracurricular project? Sound like more than that to me but I don't have the entire Paul Harvey story here. Most times we do not. He's certainly can take any of our advice and proceed on his own.

 

What's the next thing this guy is going to do to other scouts? This is a pattern of behavior. It seems that if all the folks know about this guy, it's time to take some definite action. A friendly call or appointment with the SE is not an inappropriate action IMHO.

[moosetracker 132]

Beavah - many councils assign a District Advisor.. In our district the scout will call if the project changes or they have a difficult question this person is their contact person. Like the thread from this week if a parent can float a loan for the project.. Sometimes my husband has gotten a call because part(or all) of a project plan got changed.. Like once a path a scout was going to clean was totally logged.. Scouts fault as he got it approved then went to do it 2 years later.. (surprise! surprise!).. Smaller changes, like my son was in a cemetery when the project was approved he was to remove moss from the stones (a small part of the overall project) then the cemetery caretaker found out it would damaged the stones so he could do the rest of the project, but not the stone cleaning.. Therefore he ran it through the district Eagle advisor who suggested adding on to another part (creating cemetary signs) to do x amount more signs. The one where the project was vandalized on the last day of work, of course the scout called the district Eagle advisor.

 

Sure the troop may assign an Eagle Coach (or in alot of cases, not).. But, there are still times, to suggest getting advise from the assigned distict eagle advisor. I would have been surprised if on this bump in the road, the scout had not reached out to make this contact.

[qwazse 4342]

She also runs a Crew in town and has invited my son to join. I don't think she would do this if he is at fault and troublesome ...

 

Don't presume that!!! Some advisors take perverse pleasure in assembling crews out of fault-ridden and troublesome youth.

 

Regardless, help your son think through the options. He should pick a unit that offers more than the chance to resume his trail to Eagle with a minimum of effort. For example, if that crew is into dance and theater and has no interest in his desire to climb rocks and shoot guns, he may want to consider another unit -- even if resolving his advancement woes is low on that other unit leader's list.

[Beavah 205]

Beavah - many councils assign a District Advisor.. In our district the scout will call if the project changes or they have a difficult question this person is their contact person.

 

Yah, moosetracker, does your council do district-level EBORs?

 

Most of the bigger councils have moved to unit-level EBORs, and as more councils consolidate I reckon that will continue. You're right, though, there are a fair number that still do district-level EBORs, and I could see 'em also doin' a district-level advisor. I don't think there are any councils left that do council-level EBORs. Anyone hear of any?

 

Havin' seen and worked with both systems, I prefer the unit-level EBORs myself. District EBORs are much less personal for both the boys and the unit folks who have put in all that time. The boys tend to open up more and be more at ease, and the unit scouters get their paychecks. Same with advisors. If you're goin' to have one, I think it should be a unit scouter who knows the boy and the town where he's doin' his project. Stronger ties to the community, less likely to be friction or just random "issues" between the lad and the advisor.

 

Except in this case, I guess!

 

Beavah

 

[fred8033 1592]

Beavah - Getting on a tangent now, but I fully agree with you. As I think about it more, I'd really like to see unit level EBORs. Our district is large and does well but has trouble staffing the EBORs. It affects the quality of the EBORs. Though they are okay, they are a bit impersonal and ya get the feeling that most of the EBOR members are just trying to get through it. I'd much rather see unit level EBORs. I could really see making them very special for the scouts involved. Sort of a celebration and a reflection on their experiences.

 

I'd say also confirming the requirements are done, but the council registrar does a really good job of that before the EBOR is approved to move forward already. Plus I've yet to see a district EBOR that does any type of check that the requirements are done. So unless the scout makes a big mistake, the district EBOR is pretty much an automatic move forward event.

 

I wish our district would move to unit EBORs. As the CC, I'd be glad to coordinate getting the district adv person to attend and to make it a very memorable event.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[moosetracker 132]

Plus I've yet to see a district EBOR that does any type of check that the requirements are done

 

Well there was that one that went through every blue card checking that each MBC was valid at the time period the boy got the MB sign off.. IMO WAY TOO OVER THE TOP!!!

 

Seriously.. You don't see it, done at the EBOR level, that is because it is done at the office when the final paperwork is turned in.. All his ranks from Scout through Life should have been recorded.. All necessary merit badges should be on record.. If not the Troop will get a call. For us it usually was a merit badge that they did not record right. Ny husband would get a copy of what the council had on the boys advancement yearly, and try to fix missing ranks or meritbadges early rather then when the boy turned in his final paperwork the day before his 18th birthday, and a week later the office is calling about missing meritbadges after the 18th birthday.. Still got hit once or twice, so then went to getting the specific boys record closer to the boys completion date, especially if he was 17+..

 

Hopefully a new system will not allow them to add star & life ranks while missing the first class rank (as it does now). And checks that the correct number of elective Merit badges and required Merit badges are met at each Star, Life & Eagle rank..

 

Never knew they ever had a council level EBOR. I have heard of the unit level ones.. Mixed feeling on it, like any change.. I have sentiments over the old way, some of the projects that come in our way too easy, and/or not correct (like one where the scout was going to raise money to go to (I think) Ireland so that he could do a certain persons ancestry research)).. I suppose it will be easer to conduct the Eagle board rather then waiting for the monthly run one..

[Basementdweller 608]

Our District had an EB they met once a month for 3 hours on a thrusday evening. You had better be 15 when you go to make the appointment.. I am told they see three boys a night and were booked out 6-9 months.

 

They do exactly as moose said....Validate each merit badge from blue cards, call your references and discuss in detail the candidate......

 

 

Well they were disbanded 2 years ago over several boys aging out and their inflexibility to help them finish their eagle......

 

 

[moosetracker 132]

Basement - That is even more over-the-top then the checking of MBC lists.. So what happens if the MBC can no longer be reached.. Moved out or passed away?? Kid has to redo the MB? I personally can't remember all the scouts I worked with, especially if you start going 6 years back. Did I work with him.. Hmm.. maybe.. was that for family life -or- communications I worked with him on..?

 

One of my sons & his friend worked with someone on Orienteering who was in early stages of alzheimers (or something with similar symptoms.).. Sons friend got home and washed the blue card.. Called the MBC, who had a hard time remembering the scout he worked with 3 days back.. Until the scout related a hystarical story of my son doing something really funny.. The MBC broke out in laughter "Oh, yes, I remember you now..". Call this MBC after 3 years, he would not remember this scout even with relating the funny story.

[SSScout 1615]

I think echaney has heard all the good answers here.

Make sure the IH and COR are informed of what has happened.

Make sure the DE and Commissioner know about what happened.

Speak to the school and see if there was a break down in communication and authority (teacher OKing the project when the Principal should have?)

Picking up pieces and moving on to new unit with rest of sinking ship survivors (metaphor?).

Exploring the possibility of the noted project actually serving as the Eagle candidate's project.

Possibility of a COuncil EBoR under protested circumstances (maybe not needed yet).

 

Extra info: In our newly balkanized council/service area/district, there is a tradition of the Troop (thru committee approval and SM approval) passing the project on to the District Eagle Advisor for approval. I have seen several projects get tweekked in Troop committee, committee members having knowledge of construction or other skills. When the project is OKed by the DEA, then it is up to the Scout and beneficiary to make it happen.

The District sponsors the Eagle Board of Review. They are scheduled twice a month, if no one needs to be seen, they don't happen. Might be three held at the same time, in the same church basement. Each board is chaired by a member of the District Advancement committee, and the other three or four folks on the board are volunteers and usually include folks that bring the Scout for his EBoR. Yes, might be other parents. The SM escorting the Scout does not sit on any EBoR.

The few I have sat on were more than congratulatory efforts. We read thru the records and sometimes found discrepencies to explain, either by the Scout or perhaps the SM. We also found lots of things to celebrate: worthy projects, glowing recommendations, indications of a Scout's history and culture.

The conversations ranged from complaints about Philmont's food to memories of learning to fix blisters and being satisfied about the completion of the project.

The EBoRs that I have participated in were all "successful", and we gladly signed the paperwork involved. I heard stories, however, from my fellow Scouters about some that were not, but that is for another ecracker barrel.

 

I think echaney's boy will learn from his experience and a(with the right attitude) be the better for it.

Whether the SM in question will learn from his experience remains to be seen.

[eisely 13]

I have never heard of a SM doing something like this. Nevertheless all the advice to move on is sound. Here are some additional points to ponder:

 

It was my impression that only the COR or IH can remove a member, youth or adult, from a unit. In this situation it is reasonable to assume that the SM has made whatever representations those authorities may want to hear and they have already gone along with the adverse action against the scout.

 

I would give serious consideration to requesting an EBOR at the district level, depending in part on how much documentation you have for the other eagle requirements.

 

I presume that neither the SM nor the CC have signed the eagle rank application, and would not do so if asked. While merit badges and other ranks are a matter of record at the council office, one thing that the unit still controls is documenting whether or not the eagle candidate has performed in one or more "positions of responsibility". I always took the SM's signature on an eagle application as affirming that the POR requirement has been met. Where is your son with respect to these requirements? Do you think that the prior unit would confirm what he has done?

 

There is a transfer form for scouts leaving a unit that the unit should provide if the unit is operating in good faith. Among other things this form is designed to assist scouts whose family may have moved to another town or state. If that form has not already been provided, your son should ask for it, and it should include confirmation of what PORs he may have held while a life scout. Regardless of the SM's personal feelings he should not be standing in the way of your son completing his eagle elsewhere, so you need to be sure you have everything you really need from your son's former troop.

[echaney 10]

Thank you everyone for your great advice and input. We now have options and know what we will be doing.

 

To finalize and briefly answer eisely, in a perfect world you are correct about the charter removing a scout. However in our case, the Troop does whatever it wants and the charter blindly accepts all decisions without investigation. Basically the SM and CC hold all the power.

 

As for my son's documentation, the previous SM signed off the project indication all merit badges are completed and POR have been met. This was done before the project was approved by Council. I do know that the SM will not sign off that the project was completed, but according to the advancement guide there are ways around this. In reality, all my son needs is the signature of the sponsor of the project.

 

We have since moved to a new troop, and I laid all of this out to the new SM. He is willing to help my son finish his Eagle rank advancement. He knows firsthand what my son has done for the other Troop and has seen his leadership in action. Also several other scouts (5 as of writing this) and their families have also transferred to this new troop and they have also seen my son's leadership involvement. My son will get his Eagle rank advancement at some point, whether he has to do a new project or not. He is determined and the previous SM cannot do anything about it. In fact, my son is considering working on the Hornaday Award.

 

I know my tale sounds extreme and one-sided, but the facts are what they are. I am not imaginative enough to dream up this kind of drama or would wish this upon anyone. I am proud of my son's attitude throughout this ordeal and he will be a better person because of this. I would never wish this mess upon any boy.

 

Thank you all again!