Boy Led - Reality check

[fred8033 1593]

okay ... So I received a pretty negative reply by a very well respected scouter who suggested the problem with our troop is that we're not boy led.

 

Personally, I hate that phrase as it's often used in a mean way. It communicates a truism without any concrete details that everyone agrees on. AND, it almost always leads into a put down of another troop. Spoken - "Join us because we're boy led." Unspoken - "Don't join them because they don't really understand the program."

 

Enough on that though. Here's the quote.

 

"The problem, though, is with the adult-run nature of da rest of the program. Why would the troop treasurer produce financial statements for any outing? Didn't the boys budget it and manage the expenses? Why in the world is the committee dealin' with signup sheets or tracking attendees? That's the responsibility of the Patrol Leader. Why in the world would the committee be approvin' the dates and locations selected by the PLC? And good heavens, why are they making reservations and reviewing what should be done each day?"

 

So this draws out a few specifics that I'm really interested in. Our troop tries to follow the Scoutmaster handbook, Troop committee guidebook, GTA, G2SS and other official BSA documents as our guide. Or as others say our "true north". If there's debate, we use both common sense and these documents to find the answer.

 

But the above quote reflects a venturing concept more than Boy Scouting. When I look at youth leadership roles from the scoutmaster handbook or troop committee guidebook, it doesn't match.

 

Of the three troops I've seen in detail and the five or six that I chat with, I've never seen the scouts doing detailed financial management, reserving facilities or even collecting sign up forms / health forms.

 

So I'd like to ask...

 

...

 

.... FOR BOY SCOUTS .... NOT VENTURING ....

 

.... Standard operating procedure type of replies please ... "for every camp out" ... not special oh we did that on a camp out two years ago answers

 

...

 

MONEY

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts create a budget for each camp out?

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts manage the camp out budget on an on-going basis? ... beyond knowing how much they can spend on food per person and managing it while shopping and filling out an expense report

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts research and cost out buildings and other price points?

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts produce financial summaries for camp outs?

 

QUESTION - Does your adult troop treasurer NOT produce financial reports for events? And if not, should they be doing it?

 

...

 

ATTENDANCE

 

QUESTION - Do your patrol leaders manage event sign up sheets?

 

QUESTION - Do your patrol leaders record attendance info? ... Not including the troop scribe taking attendance at troop meetings and patrol leaders organizing scouts forming patrol lines at different times and reporting their attendance while in those lines.

 

QUESTION - Does your adult troop advancement chair NOT track attendance in troopmaster or similar?

 

QUESTION - Does your an adult leader in your troop NOT track who's signed up for camp?

 

QUESTION - Does your troop NOT have an adult generated sign-up list used by the scoutmaster to know who should be there when leaving for camp?

 

...

 

CALENDAR, RESERVATIONS and ACTIVITIES

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee NOT approve dates and locations chosen by the PLC?

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts make facility reservations?

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee (or at least the scoutmaster) NOT review and approve the major activities the scouts plan to do?

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee NOT provide feedback to the scoutmaster after SPL give the PLC report?(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Oak Tree 15]

Every troop leader I've ever talked with has described their troop as "boy-led". The phrase obviously means a lot of different things to different people.

 

So, for our troop:

MONEY

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts create a budget for each camp out? No.

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts manage a budget? ... beyond knowing how much they can spend on food per person or managing. No.

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts research and cost out buildings and other price points? No. Well, not generally. We do have a youth leader for each trip and an adult leader, and they work together to figure out the details. It generally is more done by the adult. Also, we often discuss some general expense guidelines at PLC - do we prefer option A or option B given that A is more expensive?

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts produce financial summaries for camp outs? No.

 

QUESTION - Does your adult troop treasurer NOT produce financial reports for events? And if not, should they be doing it? Normally the adult trip leader has a good summary of expenses. The treasurer can produce them on request.

 

In general I'm not too worried about this aspect of "boy-led". In our troop the parents pretty much just write the checks and the Scouts do not therefore have a good foundation to make the decisions.

 

ATTENDANCE

 

QUESTION - Do your patrol leaders manage event sign up sheets? No. Not long term, anyway. Sometimes there are patrol sign-up sheets that get handed to the patrol leader at the beginning of a meeting and that he turns in at the end.

 

QUESTION - Do your patrol leaders record attendance info? No.

 

QUESTION - Does your adult troop advancement chair NOT track attendance in troopmaster or similar? No. Although I hate questions phrased in the negative. We do use TroopMaster and it is an adult who does so.

 

QUESTION - Does your an adult leader in your troop NOT track who's signed up for camp, arrived and is ready to leave for camp and who is brought home? No. Again, with the negative. We do have an adult who tracks who is signed up. We do ask the patrol leaders to tell us who is there from their patrol. We don't really track who is brought home.

 

CALENDAR, RESERVATIONS and ACTIVITIES

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee NOT approve dates and locations chosen by the PLC? No, not really. The committee pretty much leaves that up to the Scoutmaster, although the committee does get briefed.

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts make facility reservations? It has happened, but it's usually the adult trip leader who does it.

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee (or at least the scoutmaster) NOT review and approve the major activities the scouts plan to do? Yes, sure, the Scoutmaster does.

 

I'll say these seem like pretty rhetorical questions, Fred. I suspect you know that most troops operate the way you describe - especially the larger ones. Are you trying to generate a ground-swell of opinion?

[shortridge 184]

The question for me has always been "Why are adults doing something that the boys can do themselves?" That's the question everyone should be asking, and that I think Beavah (the only person here who uses the word "da" ) was trying to suggest.

 

Do your scouts create a budget for each camp out?

 

Sure.

 

Do your scouts manage the camp out budget on an on-going basis? ... beyond knowing how much they can spend on food per person and managing it while shopping and filling out an expense report

 

There are three basic categories of expenses - the site, food and transportation. What exactly needs to be "managed" on an "on-going basis"?

 

Do your scouts research and cost out buildings and other price points?

 

That's generally part of the PLC planning process, sure.

 

Do your scouts produce financial summaries for camp outs?

 

Beyond "Hey, we have $5 left over from food purchases" or "The canoe rental cost went up $2 between the time we checked and the time we went. Mr. Smith paid the $20 out of his pocket, so we need to pay him back" - what exactly is needed for these "summaries"?

 

Does your adult troop treasurer NOT produce financial reports for events? And if not, should they be doing it?

 

No, and no.

 

Do your patrol leaders manage event sign up sheets?

 

Yes. Why wouldn't they?

 

Do your patrol leaders record attendance info? ... Not including the troop scribe taking attendance at troop meetings and patrol leaders organizing scouts forming patrol lines at different times and reporting their attendance while in those lines.

 

Yes. Why wouldn't they?

 

Does your adult troop advancement chair NOT track attendance in troopmaster or similar?

 

Why would they, when the PL already tracks that?

 

Does your an adult leader in your troop NOT track who's signed up for camp?

 

Adults generally do track summer camp sign-ups and payments, because they usually involve larger amounts of money and interfacing with the council office. But regular outings, no.

 

Does your troop NOT have an adult generated sign-up list used by the scoutmaster to know who should be there when leaving for camp?

 

No. Why should they, when the PLs can do that? They know everyone in their patrols and who's supposed to attend, and can report that to the SPL at a moment's notice.

 

Does your troop committee NOT approve dates and locations chosen by the PLC?

 

No. Why should they? Program is the purview of the SM, and thus the PLC. The TC shouldn't be interfering.

 

Do your scouts make facility reservations?

 

Sometimes, but not when the facility requires a credit card.

 

Does your troop committee (or at least the scoutmaster) NOT review and approve the major activities the scouts plan to do?

 

The SM is in the room with the PLC, and that's when "review and approval" takes place. Program is his or her purview, not the TC's.

 

Does your troop committee NOT provide feedback to the scoutmaster after SPL give the PLC report?

 

Maybe. It depends. If someone wants to make a suggestion or compliment the SPL on the program or planning, then sure.

 

=======

 

Edited: One area I might agree with you on, fred, is that adults should be collecting health forms. They contain a good deal of confidential, personal information, and families and Scouts might not want their friends to know certain details.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[fred8033 1593]

Oak Tree wrote: "I'll say these seem like pretty rhetorical questions, Fred. I suspect you know that most troops operate the way you describe - especially the larger ones. Are you trying to generate a ground-swell of opinion?"

 

I'm not looking for a groundswell of opinion. I don't really care about being the nail that sticks up. And yes, parsing the original statement phrase by phrase is over the top.

 

I'm just trying to see if I've missed something so key to the program. When someone so experienced says something so different than what I've seen, I do get confused. I'm just wondering if there are troops that do what was written.

 

A good example is about five years ago I was at a Univ of Scouting session and the trainer had run NAYLE for a few years. He started making BOR recommendations to the class that directly conflicted with BSA documents. I was confused. I asked and he said he preferred how BSA had done it 30 years ago. I was not in BSA thirty years ago. I had never read it or seen it in practice. So it was confusing to me.

 

SO is the above quote. It's so different than my experience. I am confused.

 

 

[Engineer61 19]

Short Answers:

 

MONEY - CO requires adults to handle all financials.

 

ATTENDANCE - Boys (usually) handle signup, but roster is turned over to Adults.

 

RESERVATIONS, DATES - All activity dates are approved by the adults based on school and other outside schedules. (No trips prior or during school standards testing...etc.)

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

I agree with Short on this one, why do adults do the things that the scouts can do themselves? Now I know sometimes adults do not take the scouts seriously, heck some older adults don't take younger leaders seriously, but here are my answers from my youth.

 

MONEY

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts create a budget for each camp out?

 

YES Each patrol creates their own budget.

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts manage the camp out budget on an on-going basis? ... beyond knowing how much they can spend on food per person and managing it while shopping and filling out an expense report

 

each activity has it's own budget, so their is no ongoing basis

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts research and cost out buildings and other price points?

 

Depends, sometimes we did it, other times adults had to get involved b/c the person would nto take the scouts seriously and would only talk to adults.

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts produce financial summaries for camp outs?

 

No

 

QUESTION - Does your adult troop treasurer NOT produce financial reports for events? And if not, should they be doing it?

 

No

 

ATTENDANCE

 

QUESTION - Do your patrol leaders manage event sign up sheets?

Yes, every PL was responsible for their patrol and the SPL colelcted it all

 

QUESTION - Do your patrol leaders record attendance info? ... Not including the troop scribe taking attendance at troop meetings and patrol leaders organizing scouts forming patrol lines at different times and reporting their attendance while in those lines.

 

Yes PLs took attendance at all activities. We used the little Patrol Leader Record Book.

 

QUESTION - Does your adult troop advancement chair NOT track attendance in troopmaster or similar? NA as they didn't have that stuff. Everythign was recorded in the "Brown Book" aka Troop Record Book. Copies of the advancement reports were kept by the troop advancement person.

 

QUESTION - Does your an adult leader in your troop NOT track who's signed up for camp? No that is the PL's responsibility. PL gives copy of their report to SPL.

 

QUESTION - Does your troop NOT have an adult generated sign-up list used by the scoutmaster to know who should be there when leaving for camp?

 

No that's the PL's and SPL's responsibilties.

 

CALENDAR, RESERVATIONS and ACTIVITIES

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee NOT approve dates and locations chosen by the PLC? PLC takes a lot of time coming up with the calander as we had to deal with over 15 different school calanders. Whatever the PLC decided, it had to be done.

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts make facility reservations? depends, sometimes yes, sometimes no if the reservation agency wouldn't take the scouts seriously.

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee (or at least the scoutmaster) NOT review and approve the major activities the scouts plan to do?

SM attends the PLC and does advise. That's part of his job description.

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee NOT provide feedback to the scoutmaster after SPL give the PLC report? SPL doesn't deal with the committee, SM does. Committee provides support for the program, not programing ideas

 

I was so fortunate in that my troop very youth run,a nd we were a hiking and camping troop. When I read JTE requirement with troops camping out only 4x/year, it blew my mind. See troops that stop meeting for the summer, only goign to summer camp or HA bases, blew my mind, that was the best part of the year for Scouting b/c there was no school. When I see and read about adults doing things the scouts should be doing, I am flabergasted.

 

But I see how easy it is for that to happen. Lack of proper training, units falling into ruts or being built up, new CS parents moving up and not understanding the difference between Cubs and Boy Scouts.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Stosh 3452]

If there is a balance somewhere between boy-led and adult-led, then I'm the last person that knows where that is.

 

I was removed as SM from my last troop because I would have answered yes to pretty much all of the questions Fred poses. The #1 complaint was that I expected too much leadership out of the boys.

 

Everything was planned in detail by the boys, the finances, the dates, etc. everything. Sure the adults kept an eye on it in case things got out of hand, but for the most part it didn't.

 

They planned all the campouts, including summer camp, did all the finances, signed up for MB's, etc.

 

Scribe kept record of attendance and gave to the adult to load into TroopMaster. He also kept track of dues, just to learn the process of regular income, expenses. Dues were spent on whatever the boys wanted, the only reason dues were expected was for experience for the scribe. Lots of pizza parties.

 

Advancement was all handled by the boys including such things as summer camp pre-test of swimming, etc. and making sure advancement on such things was recorded.

 

Quartermaster would submit lists of needed equipment to the CC for approval of purchase.

 

Our "Popcorn Colonel" was one of the boys that wanted to take on the project. All logistics were handled by him and those who were working with him as they were needed.

 

Leadership was passed around to the different patrols/leaders. If flyer came out for the spring camporee, I handed it to the SPL and he asked if anyone wanted to take lead on the project. If no one did, it was tossed in the garbage. If someone needed service project hours for advancement, a PL would report to the PLC a need and let them know they would be scheduling one and if anyone else wanted in on it for hours to see him. (The only time I ever "handed a flyer" to the SPL would have been in the case where the SPL and the ASPL were unable to attend the district roundtable and get one themselves.

 

Since I was removed, the parents now do all the planning and the boys are all off the hook. The balance was tipped back to where I started 3 years previously.

 

Stosh

[Papadaddy 121]

B-P said, "Never do anything that a boy can do for himself." THat about sums it up.

[Lisabob 13]

Too many questions - I'm not in the mood to answer each one (sorry, but it is the truth tonight).

 

Here's one that caught my eye though:

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee (or at least the scoutmaster) NOT review and approve the major activities the scouts plan to do?

 

No. When committees get this deep into things, there's not a lot of point about talking about "boy led." The committee should not micromanage the troop.

 

 

[Gunny2862 11]

My take on approving the major activities is analogous to the Committee approving the calendar, which is the youths assurance that the adults will provide and can see they have or will have the budget to support those youth chosen and planned activities. Not overly intrusive to me. Now if our youths could plan on driving themselves out of town, out of state, etc to do activities then maybe I'd think the approval of activities too intrusive but...

[Venividi 35]

There is a follow on question that is in the background to these questions - which is "do the adult leaders see value having the boys do these things. i.e., does it support the mission of the unit? If the adult leaders see value in the boys learning to do these things, then they will put in place a program where the boys are taught the skills, and expectations are set among both the parents and boys. If the adult leaders don't see value, i.e., its not part of their long term vision, then the unit wont move in that direction. As can be seen in the responses, there is not universal agreement.

 

It is very similar to the thread a couple of months ago about whether learning should be expected as part of the advancement method as instructed in the GuideToAdvancement, or if having that expectation was adding to the requirements because the scout handbook doesn't specify "learn" as part of the requirements, (and the GTA is not issued to scouts :-)).

 

Fred made a good point in that other thread, that if a SM couldn't explain to a scout reasons why he (the SM) expected the scout to actually learn the skills, then once and done should be all that is required of the scout. Same thing here - if the SM can't explain to scouts and parents the value of boys actually doing planning at this level, then the unit shouldn't strive to go that direction, because it will never get the support needed.

 

The respected scouter that Fred refers to created a list of various stages of "boy led" that a troop may be in. It was a well written piece that gave characteristics of troops at various points on the continuum of boy led. We always urge the boys to stretch and grow; we can do the same for ourselves by taking on the challenge of moving a troop a little bit further along that continuum. It's part of the vision thingy that Barry always talks about.(This message has been edited by venividi)

[boomerscout 35]

"But the above quote reflects a venturing concept more than Boy Scouting. When I look at youth leadership roles from the scoutmaster handbook or troop committee guidebook, it doesn't match"

Current Youth Leadership Training for Boy Scouts now has a lot of overlap with Youth Leadership Training for Venturing. Are your SM handbooks and guidebooks up to date?

You do send Scouts to Leadership training? But then don't allow them to implement what they've learned upon their return?

Troop adults are expected to advise, mentor & do some training of the PORs, but if the PORs don't take active leadership roles, then the program has failed them

Just my take on things

[IM_Kathy 32]

MONEY

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts create a budget for each camp out?

 

only for food

 

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts manage the camp out budget on an on-going basis? ... beyond knowing how much they can spend on food per person and managing it while shopping and filling out an expense report

 

they do for food and turn in receipt for it so that's the expense report

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts research and cost out buildings and other price points?

 

no, but when we need to purchase something major for the troop it's given to a boy or two as their star/life project to research prices, styles, etc... to bring back to the group. Sometimes it's not used for any of that and the QM or SPL will delegate several boys to research and bring back the info. but as far as buildings or campsites - no.

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts produce financial summaries for camp outs?

 

no.

 

QUESTION - Does your adult troop treasurer NOT produce financial reports for events? And if not, should they be doing it?

 

not for events - just keeps a balanced budget and reports it

 

 

ATTENDANCE

 

QUESTION - Do your patrol leaders manage event sign up sheets?

 

no

 

QUESTION - Do your patrol leaders record attendance info? ... Not including the troop scribe taking attendance at troop meetings and patrol leaders organizing scouts forming patrol lines at different times and reporting their attendance while in those lines.

 

no

 

QUESTION - Does your adult troop advancement chair NOT track attendance in troopmaster or similar?

 

scribe turns over to advancement cordinator who does the troopmaster deal

 

QUESTION - Does your an adult leader in your troop NOT track who's signed up for camp?

 

outdoor chair does and treasurer does for keeping track of who is taking out of scout account.

 

QUESTION - Does your troop NOT have an adult generated sign-up list used by the scoutmaster to know who should be there when leaving for camp?

 

yes the adult has the sheet, but once it's arrival to depart it's handed over to SPL who handles making sure all is there, the ASPL assits SPL and QM to make sure all is being loaded and boys are doing what is needed (usually QM is loading trailer and ASPL is at water spigot where all other boys are hauling their water)

...

 

CALENDAR, RESERVATIONS and ACTIVITIES

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee NOT approve dates and locations chosen by the PLC?

 

approve isn't the right word as we've never turned down - though we will make a suggestion that "ice fishing in Jan. is a little too early I think you should wait for Feb." though this year it still wasn't frozen enough to do.

 

dates - we've always used the 3rd weekend of the month so other than adjusting for camporees and setting summer camp there isn't much to do. So for spring they pick 1 campout for April/May and depending on when the camporee is they will then decide whether to do the campout in Apr. or May. Summer camp is a vote by those going - and it's not a vote for which to go on, but which dates they can't attend on.

 

QUESTION - Do your scouts make facility reservations?

 

no this is done by outdoor chair

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee (or at least the scoutmaster) NOT review and approve the major activities the scouts plan to do?

 

never had to deny other than the ice fishing since the pond wasn't frozen.

 

QUESTION - Does your troop committee NOT provide feedback to the scoutmaster after SPL give the PLC report?

 

never really needed.

 

------------------------

 

all that stated. my son's first troop was done completely boy done. and campouts never happened. John was suppose to reserve the site and didn't get to it yet. Pete was suppose to fill out this form other than adult signature and he left it at home. NOTHING ever got done.

 

I think there is a difference between boy-led and boy-done. To me boy-led means they plan: they decide what they want to do at a campout, where they want to camp to be able to do that, how long they want to stay there. It means they lead: they lead the younger scouts in all the "how to's" of scouting... knots, tents, packing, hiking, reading maps. It means they work together: John wants to canoe, Pete wants to bike, Luke wants to just chill... they agree to have a campout for canoeing, a different one for biking, and either make sure their is chill time at these as well or they plan another campout that is just a chill out campout. our last campout was a chill/rank campout. Some of the boys chilled out and played games - some worked on rank advancement but also chilled out.

 

but the "get it done" part of reserving sites, paying the bills (other than patrol food) is done by adults.

 

that's how his troop now goes and only time anything gets canceled is if the weather makes it unsafe or not enough boys sign up (only happened couple of times)

[qwazse 4344]

Fred,

 

Just because something sounds like "aVenruring concept" doesn't mean it is.

 

True, I expect more of my crew in terms of management. But the boys in the troop sometimes have moments of brilliance. Plus, the boys have a responsibility to tend to 11-13 year olds, whereas in the crew any such obligation is voluntary.

 

Like jblake points out, you can only push as far as the adults can stand. I would also add that you want the boys to leverage their talents. One scribe might need more intervention from your Advancement Coordinator than another.

[EagleBeaver 10]

It seems to me that there are only a few things in that OP list of questions which may require an adult (reservations, writing checks, for example). But I think dumping it all on inexperienced scouts with no adult guidance is a recipe for sure frustration.

 

Sometimes adults step in, get it done, and get used to doing it rather than teaching scouts to do it. As the abilities and experience of the active scouts in a troop changes, the amount of adult involvement needed changes. Continually pushing responsibility to the scouts is how they get experience and develop abilities.

 

Scouts can be successful in all that money, attendance, and calendar stuff if they are provided with tools and support. I made TroopKit.com so our troop could have individual patrols plan each troop outing. Some patrols rely on an adult mentor for details, and others just show the PLC what they planned to get approval. The scoutmaster helps the SPL privately notice things that might need to be addressed.

Everyone can see what activities are planned, who's signed up, budgets, menus, all that stuff.

I think any troop's PLC could come up with an "outing process" checklist that fills the bill for planning a campout, covering everything in your list.

 

Scout On