Eagle POR Problem

[CubsRgr8 10]

I received the following email today from a Scout in my troop.

 

Dear Mr. ASM,

 

I am trying to secure a leadership position for my requirement for Eagle. Do you have any ideas that can help me? I talked to Mr. SM and he said that there is nothing I can do until February, which will be too late, as I turn 18 on June 12th.

 

Thank you,

 

Scout

 

As I see it, the Scout - my son's best friend - has five choices.

 

1) Accept that he missed the boat.

2) Ask his patrol leader to convene a patrol meeting ASAP, explain the situation, and request a patrol election, hoping he gets elected PL.

3) Go back to the SM and convince him to appoint the Scout to one of the secondary PORs (Chaplain's Aide, Webmaster) that are vacant.

4) Find a pack that wants a den chief, go back to the SM, and appeal to the Council when the SM turns him down (Den Chief isn't appropriate for an Eagle POR).

5) Transfer to a new troop whose SM will go with choice 3 or 4 above.

 

Does anyone see any other choices out there? I'm meeting with him this evening and would greatly appreciate your feedback.

[Horizon 97]

He should talk to the SPL to see if there is a position the SPL needs filled. The SM should not be the one choosing the SPL's staff - that is the SPL's decision.

 

Here is the list of positions from the Handbook:

 

Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, Webmaster, or Leave No Trace Trainer.

 

Den Chief is certainly an allowable position - and one that can be critical to the Troop for recruiting purposes.

He could go get his LNT training if your Council is offering it and offer to do that - it would be a way of showing his commitment.

 

I wonder why the SM is deciding to deny this boy his Eagle (that is, in effect, what he is doing). Is the SM aware of the time issue? Some boys don't do a good job of communicating at times.

[NealOnWheels 73]

When was his Life Board of Review?

 

Has he held any Positions of Responsibility since then?

[eisely 13]

I would definitely talk to the SM ASAP to ascertain if the SM is aware of the time pressure, and if so, why does he want to deny a POR to the scout. There may well be more to this than appears to meet the eye.

[fred8033 1592]

I don't know the scout or the situation and the scout was sloppy to leave things to the last moment. But in the scout's defense, most teenagers don't think far in advance. He has time.

 

I always view it as the scoutmaster's job to help every scout. Let the scout succeed or fail on his own. But if a scout came to me asking for help, I'm going to help. Shame on the scoutmaster for essentially saying tough luck. Now there's also no requirement for the SM to bend over backwards. But the good scoutmaster's do.

 

So with that said, call the SM NOW. Figure out the situation. If the SM won't help, he could transfer or go through the process in a protest mode. If the scoutmaster won't help, call the district advancement coordinator tonight! ... OR find another scoutmaster in another troop that will help.

 

Help the scout get through these hurdles. Most of them (dealing with SM attitude or district advancement chair) are beyond a scout's responsibility and reflect adult beurocracy.

 

...

 

#1 Make sure you use the POR list from the eagle application. That list is different than the PORs acceptable for star and life.

 

#2 See if he has any POR time since his life BOR. POR time can be glued together.

 

#3 Most troop positions are "APPOINTED" and can be appointed at any time. Talk to the SPL ASAP!

 

#4 Also, there is no rule the troop can only have one in a specific position. For example, many troops have multiple ASPL(s) and multiple troop guide(s). It's okay as long as the scouts are actually doing something in their PORs. Avoid giving the scout a POR where he won't fulfill a responsibility. Here's an idea.... See if the SPL has concerns about troop gear or similar.

 

He could appoint a 2nd quartermaster whose sole focus is on tents (check-in and out; inspection; repair and replacement; ...). Or appoint a 2nd ASPL whose sole focus is inspections or seeing that patrols are doing useful activities during the patrol meeting times.

 

#5 There's also the Scoutmaster assigned project. We've done that before. The scout wanted to help fix our attendance records and procedures. A fairly big task and involved changing troop practices. So that was his scoutmaster assigned project.

 

...

 

Because of the June 12 birthday, he needs a POR on or before Dec 11th (or 12th ... as soon as possible). Less then a week. Don't wait! Call on the phone. See if he can get a POR starting tonight.

 

...

 

Don't let anything wait. Get moving now.

 

If you can't tell, I've seen this happen before.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[moosetracker 132]

unless the scout has not learned his basics those Trainer positions are good for anything.. Our SM would make sure it was something that got used.. A trainer in some skill(s) the troop had a weakness in, and he had ample opportunity to lead training events.. Once he gave the scout the trainer position and assigned him to help a scout from tenderfoot-to-first when the scout had need of extra guidence due to learning disabilities..

[qwazse 4342]

The boy didn't outright say that he explained to his SM about the catch-22 of February elections. Definitely talk to the SM about whatever you do. Maybe something got lost in translation.

 

Another strategy -- and it's a long shot -- is to look for a venturing crew that needs an officer and multiple register with them (or transfer to it outright).

 

Very few crews would appoint a new leader sight-unseen. (Appointment is generally up to the youth, so the boy had better come with some serious qualities to offer.) And any board of review worth its salt will query the boy extensively about his unique leadership experience.

[Twocubdad 665]

Eisley's right. Talk with the SM first and get the whole story.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmm...

 

A few thoughts.

 

First, CubsRgr8, yeh have to be careful about going behind the back of the SM. As an ASM your role in da program is to support and assist the SM who has been selected by the committee and CO for that position. Boys will naturally look for the "weakest link" adult sometimes, and yeh don't do the lad or the program any favors that way. So your first job is to call the SM and work out together how your troop wants to handle this boy.

 

Da second thing I think yeh need to do when you talk to the lad is convey the honest truth. Yeh don't get a job because you "need one". You get a job by demonstrating to others that you're committed and capable and hardworking. This cockamamie notion of appointing boys to PORs because they "need one" is a terrible lesson in character, and character is what we're tryin' to teach.

 

So, when it comes to options.

 

1. Accept it's over - Nope, I don't think he's there yet. Accept that it's going to be hard.

2. Get the PL to abdicate and the patrol to conduct a "mercy election". Nope. Completely bogus notion. Patrols should select the best person, and presumably did. And once selected, that person is honor bound to serve.

3. Get SM to appoint to a fluff position - Nope. No fluff positions, and it should be da SPL that does any appointing. Now, if there really is a need for a Webmaster and the boy really enjoys that sort of thing, then he should put together an example site and make a pitch to the SPL, listing all the things he's going to do and all the ways that will help the troop. Then maybe!

4. Go be a Den Chief - Dubious. Being a Den Chief requires the approval of the CM and the SM. There's no "appeal" for that, eh? He's not a Den Chief without the SM's say-so. Besides, joinin' up as a Den Chief this far into the year is pretty awkward unless he already knows the Den Leader and pack. And if he does and knew they needed help, then why hasn't he stepped forward before now?

5. Transfer to an Eagle Mill - Nah. A Scout is Loyal. We don't accomplish a thing if we give a boy Eagle and in da process undermine the values we care about.

 

So I would think that da proper way to counsel the lad is to go with the modified #3. Show the SPL that you're genuinely capable and interested in serving in a position, either a vacant one or doubling up in a position with someone who needs help. Now, if the lad hasn't been a good participant or worker in the past, then that reputation may be hard to overcome, eh? That's a good lesson itself. Have him take on the task and do it anyways, even if told "no". People are more apt to give yeh credit after yeh bust your butt for 8 months not expecting anything than they are agreein' to be wheedled into a position up front. That would show real character.

 

Beavah

[BartHumphries 10]

Those are good points. If he does do amazing stuff over the next eight months, though, he can't be retroactively appointed to a position. I'd suggest that he try to do amazing stuff over the next month since he has just over a month before his 6-month deadline in early January.

 

If someone was a Junior Assistant Scoutmaster, I'd expect them to take the ASM training (same as Scoutaster). Youth Protection, Fast Start, and This is Scouting can all be taken online. Is there an age limit on Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills?

[Eagle732 27]

You might want to to find out what the SM intends to do, he could have good reason for not providing a POR for the scout.

 

I had a situation where the SPL and I agreed that his ASPL would be removed from the position because he had not attended a meeting or even talked with the SPL in two months. He got 1 month credit for the ASPL job. This scout was coming up on Eagle and did not have enough time in POR and he was 8 months away from 18. I offered him a job as Instructor, a SM appointed position, with clear expectations of what he was to do. He turned it down instead gambling on another stint as ASPL with a new SPL after the next election. He got it but if he hadn't I would not have offered him another appointed position. I do think that he took advantage of the kind and helpful nature of the SPL.

 

Your SM might have a situation where he expects the scout to solve his problem himself.

[Eagle92 110]

Beav is spot on. But here's my comments

 

1) If memory serves, the SM can assign a leadership project in lieu of a 6 month POR. Is that still the case.

 

2) The requirments do not state that the 6 months in a POR have to be consectutive, so depending upon when he got Life, he may have met the requirement already.

 

3) In regards to Den Chiefs, while it is good to have them for the entire year, some packs can use someone with some outdoor expereince for the Webelos Dens. That may be an option. BUT being a DC is major, stress MAJOR, committment.

 

Good luck.

[Beavah 205]

1) If memory serves, the SM can assign a leadership project in lieu of a 6 month POR. Is that still the case.

 

Nah, you're mixin' it up with Star and Life. For Star and Life a boy can do a SM-assigned leadership project in lieu of a listed POR. For Eagle, he has to serve in a listed POR (and the list is slightly different from that for Star and Life).

 

Beavah

 

 

[Jay K 15]

SM assigned service project is still in there. There is a Troop of over 100 Scouts that came from a different District to our District Camporee. I asked the SM about PoR. He told me he has a book of service projects.

[Beavah 205]

SM assigned service project is still in there.

 

No, Jay K, it's not. Never has been, if my aging memory serves. Eagle Scout has always required service in a POR. Da possibility of substituting an assigned leadership project is only available for Star and Life ranks. And it's not supposed to be "service projects", eh? It's supposed to be "a leadership project to help the troop".

 

See http://scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eagle.aspx and http://scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/star.aspx

 

Also, positions like Bugler are allowed for Star and Life, but are not allowed for Eagle rank.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)