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Twocub

 

Once again I am in full agreement with you. This McDonald fast food mentality of rushing the kids through the ranks emphasizing quanity over quality has and is currently doing great harm to the quality of the boy scout program and producing some very incompetent boy scouts in the process. IMO this is because many of the current crop of scoutmasters lack the skills and knowledge to deliver a quality program to their boys, and some are just plain lazy.

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Yah, SN95, welcome to ds forums. Yeh raise an interesting question, and one where you'll see two major schools of thought within the BSA. One set, what I'll call the "traditionalists", doesn't really adhere to the First Class First Year program, and instead follows a more traditional BSA program where First Class takes 18 months up to three years. The emphasis is on a scout really learning, and on a First Class scout being able to hike and camp on his own with his patrol and no adults around. The second group, a more recent variation on da BSA program makes da trail to First Class similar to a Webelos 3 progression, where there's a real push to finish in a year (like for a cub rank) and where da emphasis is more on classes and "signoffs". This is arguably more familiar and comfortable to newly crossed over boys and parents.

 

As yeh can tell, I'm more of a traditionalist myself. ;). But da real question you and your troop and your chartered organization have to answer is what are your goals for kids? What's your vision for da program and what boys should get out of it? Advancement is just a method, a game we use to accomplish other things. Depending on what yeh want to accomplish, yeh play the game differently.

 

Personally, I think if yeh intend boys to really experience the growth that comes with real learning and true self-confidence, what you describe is too fast, and amounts to "subtracting from the requirements". Let's just take one 2nd Class requirement as an example: On a campout, select your patrol's site.

 

Now let's say yeh have 8 boys in your new scout patrol. In order for a bunch of boys to make second class right out of camp, they would have to first have learned about selecting a patrol site and all the considerations : rain, lightning, sun/shade, available water, etc. They would have to have had some practice looking at sites. That's the "Scout Learns" step. Then there's the "Scout is Tested" step, where the boy on a campout, without help, does in fact select the site for his patrol (and makes a good selection).

 

So to do the testing for each of those 8 boys, yeh have to have at least 8 campouts where da lads have to make a real site selection (not just pull into the reserved site and unload). That's assuming they all pass the check the first time, which is unlikely if they were only taught once by lecture at summer camp Brownsea.

 

Yeh can look at lots of other requirements and find the same thing, eh? Plan and cook a few meals, telling about food storage and all that. How much practice do yeh figure it takes for a lad who has never cooked before to actually learn how to cook on his own? I'd say a fair bit, eh? That's the Scout Learns step to advancement. He needs a fair bit of practice cooking, and then some additional practice planning and storing and cooking, before he's ready for Step 2:A Scout is Tested. Assuming you use a patrol cooking summer camp and not a dining hall camp, a boy might possibly get enough practice cooking, but he'd still need some time learning how to plan a meal. Then you'd need multiple campouts for testing, where each boy planned and cooked well from start to finish for his test.

 

My guess, based on your timing, is that you're cheating the boy on the Scout Learns step to advancement. Probably doin' a once-and-done signoffs as a group rather than individually, or counting the instruction/learning as the test, so that the boy gets "helped" through the test.

 

Now, that might be what yeh want, if your goal is only to "expose" the boy to camping or cooking. I always think of that as kinda what cub scouts is supposed to be, not boy scouts, but others disagree. However, if yeh want a traditional approach, then Kudu's test is a good one, eh? Are you willing to let the boy plan and buy and store his own food without adult help, and cook in his own patrol site that he selected, at least 300 yards away from any adult, where yeh can't watch or supervise, and where eating a good meal is important to his health and safety? If he's demonstrated that he can do that to your satisfaction and that of a review board that represents those who will be held responsible if something goes wrong, then he is truly Second Class.

 

If not, then you're cheating the lad of the very stuff scouting is meant to give him, eh? Fun, adventure, confidence, skills... And all he gets instead is a dumb cloth patch.

 

Beavah

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Yah, one more. Just because I looked at the accident threads eh?

 

Would yeh trust your Tenderfoot scouts to know da rules to safe hiking well enough on their own not to have caused the accident with da boulder? If yes, then they really earned Tenderfoot. If not, then yeh probably cheated.

 

That's why this stuff really matters, eh?

 

Beavah

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Our Troop falls into the traditionalists camp - we're quite happy if they make a rank a year. We go camping every month except December, so there's plenty of opportunity to really learn Campcraft and Scoutcraft skills by doing plenty of cooking, fires, hiking, and camping in all seasons. Why go any faster? They are 1st Class by 13 or 14, and Life by 15 or 16, and mature enough to work on Eagle by 16 or 17. Most of our Scouts make Eagle sometime during their 17th year. We have a high percentage of Eagles, so we must be doing something right!

 

We just came back from summer camp too, and we had 10 new Scouts. The counselor for the 1st year program gave me a sheet indicating that they all had completed most Tenderfoot requirements as well as a bunch of 2nd & 1st Class requirements. But when I sat down with them and ask them about the elements they supposedly have completed, most require a bit of a refresher.

 

Several had never heard of two half-hitches or a taught-line when I ask them to tie them. As I worked them through the knots, a vague sense of familiarity came forth, but not enough to sign off on the requirement without additional work. I will continue to work with them to ensure they know Tenderfoot skills and use them on a regular basis.

 

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I hate fast advancement but I recently took Scoutmaster Training from a well regarded trainer that told me "crank 'em through and review". I am not happy with the answer but at least I got one. I had been arguing with another ASM who "had a plan" to get the layest group of newbies to First Class in 3 months.

 

My experience it is the parents not the boys who press for rapid advancement. Sadly they start going for Star and POR and they do not know what to do at all. The boys who really like the outdoor activity know if someone is a "parlor scout" despite the rank. But it is like inflation, if Billy gets shoved through ultra-fast because Daddy and Mommy game it than even if Bobby wants to do it right he does not want to be outranked.

 

BSA should just have Mommy and Daddy Scout awards and be done with it.

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Tampa - How do I earn my Mommy award?.. Don't I need to get it by working to clear obsticals and pushing my scout through scouting faster then his true ability?

 

Also where will be the proper place to display the new award on my uniform?

 

It kindof kills the belief of some on this forum that First class it truely the highest rank, and all the other ranks are window dressing. If you can get First Class in 3 months, and still not know how to tie your shoes.

 

 

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In 1969, as an 11 year-old, I crossed over to my Troop in February, and had completed 2nd Class before summer camp in July - in fact, did one of my 1.5 mile hike with full pack & gear for First Class the day we arrived for summer camp!

 

I had finished First Class by October or November (we did not meet as a Troop in the summer, just as Patrols).

 

And that was during an era when you had a prescribed time limit in each rank! (Of course, we started with no rank, and then earned Tenderfoot - which our Arrow of Light had done a great job of preparing us for.)

 

We camped as a Troop monthly, camped as Patrols about every 6 weeks, and usually had a Patrol hike every other week. And worked on Scoutcraft skills at every meeting of the Troop and Patrol.

 

If it could be done back then, there is no reason it can't be done now.

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Very true Eagle72, but you are stating alot of weekend outings with the troop or patrol, more then once a month.

 

If the OP stated that their troop was very active and listed this & that, then stated that they earned rank at summer camp using all the skills they had learned on troop outing, that is a different story.

 

But, They earned Scout at first COH, then earned Tenderfoot, and 2nd class and most of first class at summer camp.. This doesn't sound like these kids were emursed in scouting for 3 whole months, but rather one week.

 

There are always exceptions, the overly active troop going out more then once a month as in your case. A child who grew up with an older brother who was in scouting and came in knowing his scoutcraft from learning alongside his brother. The child who grew up with a family who spends many weekends in the backwoods. Or an overly gifted child that catches on quickly..

 

But for a normal troop, to have all their scouts advance this quickly through a summer camp program, points to scouts who got a rank that they now have to learn the skills that the rank already says they possess.

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More paper eagles.....

 

No way an 11 year old should be first class. I doubt he has the skills.

 

 

Remember first class is the point in which he is expected to be able to take care of himself on outings or events. My son has been in the troop for 18 months now and is working on first class.

 

there is a troop in a neighboring district whose claim to fame is getting boys to Eagle the second they complete their POR's. I heard a story of a 13 year old eagle...I do not know if it is fact. I would bet that 13 year old eagle lacks the skills and qualities we expect in an eagle.

 

 

To address your questions, yes it is too fast. Did you test your scouts and see if they actually had the skills or did you just take the camps word?????

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Mooseie...the Mom is award is a 30 foot apron string attached to the Scout to the Mom at the COH. We try to avoid having too many boys come at once 'cause they get too tangled and none of the boys can undo the knots.

 

The Daddy award is a really small 1970's uniform, knee socks, and a beanie hat with a propeller.

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UC Eagles belief that because he did it it should be the norm, and the answer Tampa got to his question is what is wrong with the boy scout program today, it is all quanitity over quality and retention. We have scouts with little to no real skills and knowledge, and poorly trained leaders perpetuating these weak programs, which seem to have become the norm rather than the exception.

 

The reputation and value of the Eagle and the BSA continues to diminish because of these practices, and the lack of direction and vision at National.

It is time for change before it is too late as the boy scout program continues to shrink into oblivion.

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We are in the "demonstrate-it-once-and-get-it-signed-off" camp. I like the model that Beavah describes, but it would take a lot of work to communicate the appropriate level of expectation. I think that if National wanted the requirements to be a bit more stringent (something I'd have no problem with) then they could write the requirements that way.

 

Some of the merit badges do have requirements like that. Archery - get a score of 170. Lifesaving - recover a 10-pound weight. Shotgun - hit 12 of 25 twice. Hiking - take a 20-mile hike. All of those cases are pretty cut-and-dried - demonstrate the skill in a non-subjective fashion with a bar set for how well the skill is performed. It would be easy enough to have tests like that for the skills. Right now swimming is pretty much the only skill like that. But you could easily have a "BSA knot tying test", or "BSA fire building test", or whatever.

 

They don't have those, though. So a boy who ties one bowline has "demonstrated tying a bowline". It's much easier to tell all adults and Scouts that the requirements are to be interpreted exactly as written. The skills that the boys need because they'll keep using them, those we'll keep practicing because we keep using them.

 

Some people have in their heads ideas about what is meant by various ranks. Like a First Class scout being able to hike and camp on his own with his patrol and no adults around. or belief of some on this forum that First Class is truly the highest rank, or First Class is the point at which he is expected to be able to take care of himself on outings or events.

 

For me, First Class means that he has completed the requirements for First Class. If he completes them in one month or in forty-two months, it doesn't really matter to me - I'll give him the rank when he completes the requirements. I do not think the requirements imply a level of being able to take care of himself entirely, nor much else. As written, I think the requirements merely imply some passing familiarity with a lot of things.

 

Some boys come in and want to get a bunch of stuff signed off. More power to them. We usually have some time on camping trips where we can check off a few requirements. We do focus on some of the basic skills with the new Scouts, and they get a lot signed off there.

 

But at some point the Scouts typically shift into a let's-have-fun mentality. They will stay at Second Class, or First Class, or Star, or Life, for a long time, often years, while they come to events, enjoy the activities, get to practice their skills, and not don't worry about advancement.

 

Everyone has a different vision for the way the troop should run. Does this system work for us - yes. Do the Scouts earn Eagle at 13 or 14 and then leave? - No. By far the most common age of those earning Eagle is 17. Do the boys enjoy their time? - yes. Are we losing boys? - in general, no, we've grown to be one of the larger troops around, and we have a lot of 14, 15, and 16 year-old Scouts. The opportunity for rapid advancement isn't a big deal - a much bigger issue is how the program runs. Do you have lots of opportunity for fun? Do the boys get to hang out with their friends? Do they eventually accomplish things that they are proud of? Do they get to spend time with quality adult leaders?

 

I'm not worried about whether they are earning rank "too fast". If they are learning things, having fun, growing and maturing, and sticking around, that's good enough for me.

 

 

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Let me tell you the Tale of Two Eagles. If I bore you, just skip over it.

 

There were once two scouts who made it a goal to get Eagle, and they both completed the journey.

 

Now the first Eagle had a lot of pressure from daddy b/c daddy had both the Eagle and the Exploring Silver Award, hence a "Double Eagle" as he put it. He blazed through the journey like a laser, getting each rank with the minimum time needed at got Eagle at 13. Yes he went camping and hiking, knew the outdoors a bit, but left Scouting as soon as he got Eagle, returning years later as a leader when his son became a Cub Scout.

 

Now the second Eagle was the first one's cousin, so he too was under pressure from Uncle Double Eagle. He enjoyed Scouting, and raced through the ranks, earning First Class within 13 months, and was Life at 13 and had his Eagle project set up to go so that he could get Eagle at 14 once he finished some MBs. However a few things happened once he turned 14. First he was invited to attend the council's training course for Scouts, Brownsea 22. He had both good and bad moments with it, but overall was glad for the expereince. The Second Eagle also got elected into the OA, and ended up being a Brotherhood Member before getting Eagle. At 15 the Second Eagle got to go to the jamboree and on a canoe expedition in the Canadian wilderness, spending 2 full years preparing for those trips by working his butt off to raise money. While the "Fumes" ( perFume and car Fumes) did come into the picture at 16 and 17, he was still active because he was having FUN. Finally the SM had to give him a swift kick to the butt and remind him he had less than 7 months to get the last 2 MBs needed to get Eagle, and one of them required 3 months of work! As I said he did get his Eagle, having his EBOR 1 month and 4 days after his 18th birthday.

 

So who do you think had more fun in Scouting, my cousin who got Eagle at 13, or me at 18?

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We bridge most of our Scouts in early March, in time for them to compete at Camporee. For the weeks leading up to Camporee, we have Scouts Skills training events during meetings and on Saturdays. By the time our new Scouts hit Camporee, they are skilled up and competing - thereby showing their skills.

 

We also camp monthly, and several campouts during the summer have no tents - the Scouts build shelters using the lashings and knots that they have learned. We add in a backpacking run as well as a site where open fires are still allowed (tough here in So Cal). There we have fire building competitions and all cooking is done over the fire.

 

We schedule in the police to do a Troop drug program during the summer.

 

So with all of this, ACTIVE newly bridged Scouts can hit the requirements for Tenderfoot pretty easily, and 2nd Class by the end of the summer. If they go to summer camp, my boys like to take Swimming MB, Pioneering and Wilderness Survival their first year - which helps finish off much of the training for First Class.

 

That leaves earning First Aid MB, to help cover all of the First Aid knowledge. Early Fall we have a First Aid month, which includes a distaster meeting where scattered around the parking lot we find a series of adults and senior Scouts suffering from different conditions that must be treated.

 

We have been following this program for a few years, ever since a Scout designed it as a JASM. This makes it possible for an ACTIVE Scout (one who makes all campouts, goes to summer camp) to EARN First Class easily in their first year. However, with all of that, I would say that around 50% of my Scouts actually hit that goal.

 

Finally, as is my tradition when someone decides to disparage 13 year old Eagles. Bring it on - I EARNED mine 2 weeks before my 14th birthday. I will put my achievement, dedication to Scouting, Eagle Project, and MB sash up and I proudly wear my knot on my Scoutmaster shirt. Don't question a 13 year old Eagle any more than you question one at 17.9999. I have seen plenty of 17.999 Eagles who simply worked hard for 2 years, disappeared for 3, then came back and slowly finished. Why do you automatically give them credit, while questioning the Scout who never stopped?

 

Last year I had one 15 year old Eagle, who would have made it at 14 but he delayed finishing the write-up on his project. This year I will see 3 15 year olds finish it appears, plus one 17.9999 and one Special Needs who is 19. Based on the dedication of a couple of my younger Scouts, I could see a 14 year old Eagle in two years.

 

This is why I kept on highlighting ACTIVE. I was not an athlete nor a musician - my entire life was Scouting as a boy. When you get a boy who WANTs to come on every campout, every meeting, every activity - you get a boy who can earn First Class in a few months, and Eagle at 13. He is not a paper Eagle - he is a dedicated Scout.

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We are a pretty active Troop 1-2 Campouts/major activities a month, Summer and Winter Camp, weekly meetings, etc.

 

It is pretty hard for a first year who regularly attends 80-90% NOT to get to 1st Class if he wants to. The ones that don't typically don't bother to set up their BOR, etc.

 

I agree that the requirements that are absolute --hiking 5 miles with a Map and Compass, etc are pretty easy to enforce. We are having a running battle with an ASM over Tenderfoot #8 -Patrol Yell, Name, Flag, etc. We re-organized the Patrols into mixed-age ones and did not let the newbies name the NSP AND the new Patrols are in the midst of picking new names, etc this summer. This ASM insists that he "talked" to the newbies about the concept of Patrols and that should count. Fortunately the requirement is they have to, at the least, describe their patrol flag and since it does not exist they cannot possibly do it yet. Our advancement chair as fought the good fight and refused to enter any sign offs into Troopmaster without proof.

 

With the collapse of a local Troop we now have two feeder Packs. One pack is more outdoors based and the other more "parlor" scouts; so we have a constant culture class. Oh course the current drift of BSA means that most of the Parlor scouts have a lot of MB's to choose from and the Outdoor scouts have a harder time getting the activities they want (though the Outdoor ones all tend to get into OA)

 

Our new SM and most of the ASM's want to encourage a lot of Patrol based skill competitions (knots, tarp set-ups, fire making, first aid, etc.) to review the skills as well as build up Patrol spirit.

 

Fortunately a lot of the boys just eat up the traditional stuff and when their eyes light up it makes the other hassles worth it.

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