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Apache Bob

Eagle Scout or not?

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Unless specified as DUI Other, I associate DUI with alcoholic beverages simply because I have charged people with both and in my state there is a clear definition between the two. But I guess that's where I get in trouble believing that people may know the difference.

 

The situation should be considered on its merits. If, as Calico said, the case was one like driving after leaving a doctor's or dentist's office then I may look at this a little differently. Or if the lad had been driving while taking pain meds for kidney stone then I may feel the same way.

 

We are human in making mistakes. But we are also human in placing degrees on those mistakes made by others and the degree to which they are punished.

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Calico,

 

ApacheBob has posted often enough here that I inferred alcohol. OK, I'll ask:

 

HEY APACHE BOB!!! Do you know if the substance the Scout was accused of being DUI under is a prescribed medication or an extra-legal or illegal substance (for his age or any age)???

 

I will say this: If it's a DUI for a prescribed medication, I would assume the Scout quickly learns his lesson, and matters can be moved along with. Otherwise, I stick to my advice already given.

 

Now, to CalicoPenn: NoLesRule said:

You have to know the youth that you are dealing with and figure out which direction will work best for that particular scout.

 

Isn't this why we serve as direct contact leaders and other positions in Scouting? To get to know these young men, to give them adults to role model on and ask questions to??

 

I think Beavah has a right of it. The youth who gets it when he's told his Scouting career is on hold while his personal life sorts out probably has the value set we're aspiring to. This is a speed bump in the road. The Scout who punches out, well, you can draw your own conclusions...

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Calico -- Here in our state you can be arrested for DUI for riding a bike! So he may have been peddling home on his bike from a dentist appointment!! :)

 

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And do me a favor, please don't quote the "Advancement is just 1 of the 7 methods" mantra to me like I'm some novice idiot. I know the 7 methods.

 

Well, apparently not, since there are in fact 8 Methods. :) I think my actual quote was somethin' like 'the other 7 methods (besides advancement) still work'.

 

But easy there, nolesrule! All that's in good humor, eh? No "novice idiot" implied. Just a gentle observation that if we really feel Eagle/advancement is the be-all and end-all of whether a lad stays in a troop (because he'll quit if he can't get it), then that troop isn't usin' the other 7 as well as it should to meet the boy's needs.

 

Some people respond poorly to negative reinforcement, and it can have the opposite of the desired effect.

 

So when the lad gets his license revoked and gets sentenced, it's goin' to make him go out and drink and drive some more? :p Negative reinforcement is part of life, eh? Young folks have to learn to deal with it, whether it's being grounded by their parents, gettin' a poor grade, being turned down by their first choice college or havin' their girlfriend dump them.

 

But whatever yeh think of the value of negative reinforcement, not receiving an award is not negative reinforcement. Awards are things we use for positive reinforcement, eh? They're not somethin' that a boy is entitled to. If the lad was entitled to an award, like some member of da aristocracy, then not receiving it would be negative reinforcement. But that's not the case here.

 

I swear, that notion that kids are entitled to awards will be the death of advancement method.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

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Taking something off the table, that sort of expression, at least as it is used in these parts, has a rather permanent and final ring to it. Once something is off the table, it does not go back on it later, it is an option that is gone, full stop.

 

So in our way of speaking in these parts, if you took Eagle off the table, then put it back on the table, that would be looked at rather strangely around here.

 

(I suspect in Beavah's story the mention of taking Eagle off the table has slightly different meaning compared to how that would be understood in this area, probably a meaning that was understood to leave open revising that decision under new circumstances.)

 

Also, I don't think there is any provision in BSA for someone being permanetly barred from trying to earn something in the future based on what they did in the past. Thus to suggest such to a Scout is not particularly honest. If any scout in my troop did something that fully disqualified him from future advancement or awards, I would also ask him to depart from the troop and have the council strike him from our roster. Either you are in the program (even if under probation or conditions) or you are out.

 

Now I suspect in this case the Scout still had some hope that maybe, just maybe, he could prove himself and turn things around. He knew he wasn't entitled to it, but he still had hope. On the other hand, when you close a door, lock it, and throw away the key there is no room for hope.

 

I would agree that a Scout that does not think he has a clear path to Eagle, and yet continues on making the best of his time in Scouting, and even contributes back to the organization, would make a great candidate for Eagle. I also agree that this did show you what this Scout was really made of.

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Well, it's apparent that this kid messed up! The upside to this is that it happened at a very teachable moment, and he didn't kill himself or anyone else. Still, he will face some legal consequences for this.

 

The question is, should it cost him Eagle? Well, let's look at what this kid's consequences would be at school. If the kid was in sports, he'd probably get kicked off the team. And if NHS was a possibility for the boy, it probably wouldn't happen right now. That said, the kid would probably start off the next school year with a clean slate.

 

I think that whether or not he makes Eagle should depend on what he does next. Does he face up to this and handle it right? More importantly, does he learn something from this? This question will undoubtedly come up at a potential EBOR, and I would expect his references to be thoroughly checked out.

 

In my opinion, this Scout's chances of making Eagle are diminished, and he has a lot of work to do. But I think it's a bit too soon to say "no way, no how!"

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Hehe Beavah. Yeah, I meant 8. Not sure why I typed 7. But one of my favorite mantras as a computer tech is that the biggest cause of most problems with a computer usually is between the chair and the keyboard. :-P

 

As I said before, I'm not saying hand him Eagle, I'm not even saying this should eventually end in a successful Eagle BOR, so I don't know why you would bring entitlement to Eagle or anything else into the discussion. Except of course that as long as he is a registered member of a BSA unit, I'm of the opinion that he is entitled to participation in the Advancement Method.

 

 

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beavah

 

if you think that entitlement is the death of advancement, go down and get a load of soon to be Boy Scout parent Eliza in the Arrow of light thread.

 

 

Like Eagle007 scouting would be the least of my son or daughters concerns if I got the call they had been arrested for dui.

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John-in-KC. In answer to your question. Beer was the cause of the DUI.

I am not responding quickly to questions as I am trying to juggle several balls in the air at the same time without dropping them. I do keep dropping them and that takes longer because then I have to pick the up and start all over again.

But I am still reading and passing your comments along.

Thanks.

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Interesting topic. Ultimately, if this scout continues to apply himself, and completes the rest of his requirements, I would bet money he will be awarded his Eagle. Now how long it takes is a different manner. The troop can tell him that they will not approve him sitting before a EBOR for 12 months. The EBOR can tell him that thank you very much for appearing before us, but we want to see more and ask him to return in 6 months. Ultimately, if turned down, he will or should appeal. If he is a good kid and i suspect he is, just made a serious mistake, he will be recognized for his scout spirit and leadership rather than for his mistake. Having sat on a council EBOR appeal for a scout in a very similar situation, we ultimately overturned the local EBOR and approved the Eagle award for a scout who was by then almost 2 years removed from his mistake.

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Wanted to bring up this subject once more. I took most of the info you gave me to the UC who brought it to my attention and he passed it on to the unit ldrs.

They followed what happen on the legal side and the boy was cleared with his fingers being slapped. The boy had more problems of course with his parents that the legal side of things.

 

Several discussions with the parents and boy were held. Time was given to make sure he stayed straight.

He is now working on his Eagle project and has finished all but one MB that he needs.

It was kept in the unit.

Thanks for your help and advice.

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