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Apache Bob

Eagle Scout or not?

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There is no requirement that says "Do not make any mistakes." By adding this as a requirement we're crossing a line that I've so often seen this board bark loudly about.

Requirements met? What if he hadn't been caught, but we knew about it? What if we didn't know about it? What's the difference? He did something stupid, and he got caught. Smoking breaks laws. Speeding, too. As long as we're sitting in judgement, where is the line?

BDPT00

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Can we say use some common sense? We can play the what if games all day long. The fact is that this boy WAS caught. And I whole-heartedly agree with Beav that this is probably not the first time the boy has done this. It was just his fist time at being caught.

 

There is nothing saying that a boy has to be perfect but I remember something, somewhere about the scout oath and law and doing one's best to live up to those standards. To me that holds scouts to a higher standard just as law enforcement officers are held to a higher standard for example.

 

Whether you are caught or not, breaking laws has consequences all over the place.

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Smoking breaks laws. Speeding, too. As long as we're sitting in judgement, where is the line?

 

Wherever we choose to draw it, eh? That's our role. We're trying to teach young folks what good citizenship and personal honor look like. So what do they look like to you? To your CO? To your community?

 

That's who we represent. And all da other boys are watching, eh? They know what's goin' on, probably better than we adults do. They've heard the stories at school about the lad getting drunk at parties and drivin' home. Some of 'em might have been at the parties. They know he got caught. Their younger brothers in the troop have heard about it, too.

 

And they're all waitin' to see what happens. Do the adults who talk all important-like about the Oath and Law and Honor and Citizenship really mean it? Or is it just more nonsense adult-speak? Did I do the right thing choosing not to drink even though my buddies made fun of me, because I really wanted to be an Eagle? Or was I a fool listening to the adults because in the end does it not matter what choices I make, I can get Eagle regardless?

 

On behalf of your CO, your community, and scouting, what do you want to teach the boys by your example?

 

That's where yeh draw the line.

 

I've known scouts who were killed by people drivin' DUI. Thank the Great Scoutmaster this lad didn't hurt anyone. But do yeh really want to hold him up to the other boys in the troop right now as someone whose character and choices merit our highest award?

 

Beavah

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One problem we have is they way people see DUI. People don't see DUI as a serious crime. Ask your self what would you be thinking if he was arrested for Assault, or Larceny, or maybe even Sexual Misconduct!

 

Would you even want him to be in the troop? Would you have booted or suspended him already?

 

This is the problem with DUI, people don't take it serious.

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Let's be painfully blunt! If we (scouts & scouters) are going to talk the talk through the Scout Oath & Scout Law then we need to walk the walk! Enough said!

 

Good points by Beavah and Nldscout.

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These are the times where you earn your stripes as a leader; how you react to a very serious issue with a scout. Scouts are no different than other boys, other than they hopefully are exposed a bit more to positive examples. But they are still boys and young male adolescents. They make bad decisions, bend to peer pressure, and act out.

 

How we react to them when they do, especially the more serious things like this, is our biggest challenge. It SHOULD NOT BE A KNEE JERK response. They are not throw-away's when they mess up. But we need to help them understand the depth of their mistake, and that it will have consequences.

 

This could be turning point for the young man. Don't make it a reason to drive him away or brand him a failure. Find a fair punishment and encourage him to make amends and regain the pride in himself he would want, and that he wants from others.

 

JMHO

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Okay, one of the requirments to be signed off prior to the EBOR is "Live the Scout Oath and Law in Your Daily Life"...Or somthing to that effect. And To be honest getting a DUI is not completing that requirment therefore the SM can withhold that advancement until he proves that he has learned from his mistake. But thats just me... the SM needs to step in before it gets to the eagle board because no madder who you speak to wether or not how far up in the chain of command they are... the all will agree that there is NOTHING SCOUT LIKE ABOUT GETTING A DUI! Personally this scout should be de-ranked to Tenderfoot but i know we cant do that so thats not an option. Im not saying that this scout should never get the rank of eagle. Not at all. People make mistakes, but he needs to learn from it. Maybe make him, if he hasnt done his eagle project yet, do it regarding drinking or driving or maybe just a service project in general. Bottom line is, this is somthing that his youth and adult leaders NEED to step in and mentor him in realizing and making good with his mistakes. Hope this helps!

 

SPL1Warwick

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BDPT,

 

Are you telling me you'd buy in to an Eagle Board right now, if he's otherwise ready, and voting for this kid as a positive role model to other youth?

 

Relook the requirement:

Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life.

 

Please explain to me how he lives by the point of Obedience, Sir! For me, it's a bridge too far today. Depending on all that happens, it may not be downstream.

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Maybe the boy should be given the option of:

 

1) Watching the A&E TV Series: Beyond Scared Straight

 

2) Have frieds of the family to encourage them to allow the boy to be a part of that series.

 

Most, if not all of the teenaged female offenders on that program, admitted to drinking and smoking pot along with other crimes. This was supposed to be their wake up call. I believe it worked for 99.99%. The oldest girl of 17 went back into juvenile detention until 18 and then is probably headed to the adult side of the pen.

 

It seems as if kids today are cut from a different cloth than we were. There has been a decline in respect, ethics, morals and good behavior in general. I believe scouting (BSA & GSUSA) is the perfect organization to steer these kids in the right direction with positive role models and ideals.

 

Tough love vs. coddling is the best way to go sometimes.

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"It seems as if kids today are cut from a different cloth than we were. There has been a decline in respect, ethics, morals and good behavior in general."

 

I for one don't beleive that is necessarilly true. I think a great portion is parents and adults not holding young people accountable for their actions.

 

I frequently see youthful offenders, in NY 16-19, that if they have a parent with them in court that takes responsibility for their child, I generally only see them once. If the parent makes them own up to what they did and let them suffer a little. Once is usually enough.

 

On the other hand when the parent is absent, or is part of the problem, I get to see them over and over on a variety of issues eventually earning them a place in prison a few years down the road.

 

A lot of the time time parents are the enabler. They let the kids drink, thinking they will be friends. They say to me, well its nt Johnnie's fault everyone is always picking on him.

 

Hold your scouts accountable for their actions even if it costs you a few in membership in the end. How would you feel if you award him his eagle and then 6 months later he gets caught drinking and driving again?

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"It seems as if kids today are cut from a different cloth than we were. There has been a decline in respect, ethics, morals and good behavior in general."

 

The older generation always says that about the younger generation. And then they grow up to become the older generation.

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nldscout, What you say is true. We need to hold parents and their children accountable, not just one or the other.

 

nolesrule, The saying is very fitting and appropriate. The culture changes of the present generation has far exceeded anything I have ever seen. The junk that these kids are allowed to do and get away with with just a slap on the wrist I would have had my end blistered and grounded for months. If I were to have done something as serious as DUI, I can assure you that I wouldn't be driving until I turned 21 (if that) because I would be sitting at home being made to think about what I had done as part of my punishment.

 

I see the generation of today very, very different than that of my grandparent's, parent's and my generation. I hope that can and will change. I know I'm making a very positive influence in the lives of my children. And I would hope that it's said that I'm making a positive influence in the lives of other's children as well.

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Eagle007 - "Slap on the wrist!!!" Oh my! such Child abuse!!! :)

 

Seriously - I remember talking to someone about when my son was little and misbehaved I might swat him on the butt, I knew that it didn't hurt a bit, due to the thick diaper, and the swat was no more then a tap, but he would burst out into tears anyway because even without pain, it symbolized that Mom was mad and he did something wrong..

 

Well I was lambasted by others for my abuse to my child!.. I thought I would never hear the end of it. Even if I didn't really hurt him, to let him know he did something wrong rather then telling him everything he did was just fine, and he was just perfect all the time.

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moosetracker, I hear ya about getting lambasted by others for disciplining your child. I was in a situation many moons ago when giving my child some backside discipline in a supercenter and another shopper started to give me lip about it. The next words out of my mouth would have been, "Unless you want what I'm giving my child then I suggest you stay out of my business and mind your own!"

 

Was I abusing my child - absolutely not. Would I have put a hand on the other shopper - absolutely not. But I did want to clearly convey my point that I was handling my business as a parent in the most proper and expeditious manner possible.

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A situation occurred back when I was Distrct Advancement Chair. A scout in the troop I serve was arrested for possession of stolen property and conspiracy charges. It seems he had 4 stolen lap tops in his bedroom when the police came calling.

 

He was just about 18 and there was no time to "let it ride" we either did the Board of Review for Eagle before the time ran out or he didnt make Eagle. I asked about an extension and was told no by COuncil, it didnt fit the reasons for extension. Iknew the kid, I could not conceive of him being in on anything criminal, but yet one wonders. He said he didnt know the computers were stolen, he was putting on software for the guy who actually did steal the items

 

I went ahead with the Board and the youth was awarded Eagle, and 9 months later all charge were dropped against him, there was no proof he knew ths was stolen merchandise.

 

I made the right call, I think.

 

Had he confessed or been convicted at trial, I would be the heel. I THink about that alot

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