When do you take the scouts word?

[Stosh 3452]

EDGEy - I like that...

 

Well, I've been breaking the rules on advancement since day one. I never have had a boy demonstrate any skill to me. I always make them teach me the skill. I think I have been using EDGE since long before it was PC in the BSA world. How can I ever expect an older boy to teach a younger boy scout skills if he can't teach?

 

From Scout rank on it has always been, "Teach me the square knot", "Teach me the Scout Oath", etc.

 

All my boys would prefer being taught by the older scouts and seek them out for instruction. I'm a little rough on them. The older boys love to send the newbies off to me to have me teach the Scout rank. (our version of the two-way smoke shifter) The "mark" comes to me with a piece of rope wanting to get the square knot checked off. "Okay, teach me." They most often than not (or knot, if you prefer) have learned right over left, left over right. Or is it the other way around, or doesn't it matter, or .... By the time I get done the boy usually doesn't know right from left or up from down.

 

Mean? Kinda, but the boy begins to see that there's a lot more to this whole thing than just tying a couple of pieces of rope together and getting a signature in the book. So I teach them how to teach.

 

Take the rope and give another to the person you're going to teach. Then follow this lesson plan:

 

Hi, my name is ____________ and I'm going to teach you how to tie the square knot. (E?)

 

Turn around with your back to the student, hold the rope up high in the air and now your right and his right are the same! Put right over left then left over right. (D?)

 

See how easy that is? Okay now you show me how to do it. Wait, wait! Turn around and teach me, it's a lot more fun! Okay, right over left, good. Now left over right, Great! You got it.(G?)

 

You did great! Let's go over to your PL now and show him you know how to tie a square knot and he'll check off your book. (E?)

 

All my boys teach, they've been doing it for years, but I don't think any of them know what EDGE means.

 

My boys always love it when I catch an older scout who has "forgotten" a skill because I'll always start at the top of my voice, "Hi, my name is Mr. B____ and I'm going to teach you how to put up a dining fly! First of all you get off your butt and drag the fly out of the troop trailer...." A lot of my older boys are staying current with their skills just so I don't do that too often.

 

The other day I forgot and didn't call our CA forward for prayer at the closing flags. I dismissed them without thinking after the SM minute. The CA stepped out of line spun around and faced the boys and announced in a loud voice, "Hi, my name is John, and I'm going to teach you how to wrap up a closing flag ceremony!" What goes around, comes around! Loved it!

 

Stosh

 

Stosh

 

[Beavah 205]

You'll see that view well represented here, shrubber.

 

As both a parent and a scouter, I want to see kids learn things, not get things. Be able to do, not check boxes as literally and minimally as possible to get by. That is da BSA's official position, too, in the Rules and Regulations, but not all of da BSA documents are well edited, so there can be some confusion. And there are always some kids and some parents who do just want to "get" things, so that view comes up a lot.

 

You will find troops where a lad selects a campsite only once, or ties a knot only once, or teaches only once, taking the word of the boy or the parents rather than the observation and test given by an expert in the field. Those are the Eagle Scouts yeh see occasionally who we're slightly embarrassed by, eh? "Paper Eagles" is the term some use. Most of us want to expect more of our kids, and expect an Eagle to actually be able to do and lead and teach.

 

Yeh can find troops with different approaches, eh? But to answer your original question at the start of the thread, your Scoutmaster is right in his approach. He is following the Rules and Regulations of the BSA and is correctly interpreting the advancement program. It sounds like your son is in a good troop, because many troops are "fudging" on these new requirements. If yeh disagree, your choices are to be a good soldier and support the SM even though you disagree, or to move to another troop where things are looser.

 

Beavah

[shrubber 10]

Beavah,

 

\"As a Scoutmaster, I might hire him for some small job and pay him, then check down the road to see if he saved some of it. Maybe a bank statement with his deposit records ("hey, what about that time I paid you for..."), maybe da envelope of cash from his safe at home, maybe his records of his earnings and saving. Yeh work with da parents to try to see if the lad really has learned the lesson of saving, but the lad has to satisfy his SM, not his parents. "/

 

 

It sounds a lot like you advocate adding to the requirements..

Hiring a scout to do a job, asking to see his bank book?

I'm not sure what that is, but it's not BSA,

If you want to hand out some sort of homemade Beavah's merit badge, for fulfilling your own requirements, go right ahead. But that's not what the scout is required to do.(This message has been edited by shrubber)

[evmori 11]

But it's not the BSA advancement program.

 

It sure is the BSA advancement program. The BSA has been using EDGE but without the fancy acronym for decades!

[Beavah 205]

Nah, evmori, that's not the BSA advancement program.

 

The requirement isn't tie a square not.

 

If the requirement were tie a square knot, then "the scout learns the square knot" is the first step, just as you suggest.

 

But the requirement is to teach how to tie a square knot.

 

So the first step is the scout learning how to teach (with EDGE or whatever). So the Scoutmaster has to explain to the scout how to teach, demonstrate how to teach, coach him as he tries to teach, then let him practice teaching on his own.

 

When all that is done, then the Scoutmaster has to test him on his ability to teach the square knot. That's the second step to advancement. The Scoutmaster or his designee has to come up with a test that determines whether the boy has become proficient in teaching someone how to tie a square knot. He can't take the boy's word on it, he has to test the boy on his ability. That might be a scenario, like for first aid - "I'm old and senile and forgot how, can you teach me the right way to tie my shoes?" Or it may be live "Go teach that visiting webelos scout how to tie a square knot and I'm going to watch." But it has to be a test or assessment of the boy's ability to teach.

 

Then the third step is review. At this step, the BOR will ask a boy how he fulfilled the requirement. The boy will talk about how he learned how to teach and then how he taught a visiting webelos scout how to tie a square knot. And the BOR will take the boy's and the scoutmaster's word on how the test was performed and what the result was.

 

Those are the steps for advancement in the BSA. Yeh can't skip the first two and proceed with "just take his word for it" and still be doing Boy Scouting Advancement correctly.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah 205]

It sounds a lot like you advocate adding to the requirements..

Hiring a scout to do a job, asking to see his bank book?

 

Nah, not adding to the requirements, adhering to the requirements. Da requirement is that to advance, a scout must be tested, and the official Rules and Regulations state that "In Boy Scouting, recognition is gained through proficiency in activities related to outdoor life, useful skills, and career exploration." So however the SM chooses to test the boy on the requirement, it should require the boy to show proficiency.

 

I agree the saving thing is hard to come up with a test for. In that way it's like first aid requirements, eh? How do yeh test "show first aid for..." without actually having someone get hurt? Well, what yeh do is you create a first aid scenario, where someone simulates getting hurt. Da best ones use moulage - fake wounds and blood and such. A scout has to demonstrate proper first aid by responding to the emergency and properly diagnosing and treating the patient - finding the broken bone and making a good splint, identifying shock and choosing the correct treatment, etc.

 

Running a first aid scenario to test the scout on "show first aid for..." is not adding to the requirements. It is the requirement. Asking the boy to tell you what the first aid is or having him do a simple splint with prepared materials in a meeting hall is subtracting from the requirements and not proper.

 

I was tryin' to come up with a good scenario for saving money, eh? Paying the lad a few bucks and seeing what he does with it seems like a good scenario to test how well he's really learned the importance of saving some of his income. Your Scoutmaster might come up with a different test, I was just floatin' the idea. But a scenario or test isn't adding to the requirements. It is the requirement.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori 11]

But the requirement is to teach how to tie a square knot.

 

That's what I posted!

 

Yeah the Scout learns the square knot. He teaches it to his buddy he shoots hoops with. He tells his Scoutmaster he did this. The requirement is signed off.

 

Done!

 

 

[shrubber 10]

Quoted from: Advancement Policies #33088, pages 24)

"A Boy Scout advances from Tenderfoot to Eagle by doing things with his patrol and his troop, with his leaders, and ON HIS OWN"

 

"A Scout MAY be tested on rank requirements by his patrol leader, Scoutmaster, assistant Scoutmaster, a troop committee member

 

No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from any advancement requirement.

 

That pretty much says it all. There are things the scout is supposed to do on their own. The edge teaching, saving money are examples. I believe this is an important aspect of the program. In order to live up to the Law and Oath( Trustworthy, duty to self ) and are not meant to be tested, rather they are meant to develop those ideals.

The advancement policy clearly says 'may be tested' for that very reason, otherwise it would say 'must'

Adding the testing requirement for these requirements is in clear opposition to the advancement policy.

Most if not all of the other requirements have the testing requirement built right in, don't they?

The scout is required to describe, to show, to explain, to demonstrate etc.

If it was the purpose of BSA to have the boy 'demonstrate' that he can teach EDGE, then BSA would have put it in the book,no?

BSA hardly seems to omit things from a lack of printers ink. These few requirements are meant to be done 'on their own' in keeping with practicing the oath and law.(This message has been edited by shrubber)

[ScoutNut 147]

You seem to have conveniently dropped off part of that quote.

 

The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures also states, on page 24 -

 

"The Scoutmaster maintains a list of those qualified to give tests and to pass candidates."

 

Weather you like it or not, it IS the SM's call.

 

If you do not want to support your SM, then your other choice is to take your son and find a different Troop that fits you better.

 

 

[evmori 11]

Yes it does say that ScoutNut. Where does it say the Scoutmaster gets to pick who the Scout teaches the knot to?

[shrubber 10]

"The Scoutmaster maintains a list of those qualified to give tests and to pass candidates"

 

That just means the SM can designate an ASM or the like to sign off the requirement. Why is that relevant to the discussion?

[ScoutNut 147]

The OP was complaining that their SM - "insists that our younger scouts be seen teaching someone how to tie a square knot".

 

My comment illustrates that there should be testing, and it is the SM who decides who gets to "test".

 

While others might do this differently, Shrubber's SM is NOT WRONG in how he is handling this requirement.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, shrubber, the second quote emphasizing "MAY" comes immediately after a large, bright, bold statement that "A Scout IS Tested". The "may" refers to the many different people who could be designated to do the testing. It may be the scoutmaster, or it may be an ASM or it may be a PL, or... The scout, however, IS tested. And as ScoutNut points out, it's your Scoutmaster is the one and only person who determines who "may" do the testing for rank requirements.

 

That's the way the BSA program works. Sorry yeh disagree, but your son's SM is not wrong.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Kudu 186]

evmori writes:

 

And in about another five years I bet we have another fancy acronym for the same thing!

 

It's already here!

 

Why take your Scout's word for the EDGE requirement, when you can use EDGE EDGE: The acronym that verifies that the EDGE method has been used:

 

Have you:

 

Eliminated Patrol Adventure?

Destroyed Scoutcraft-based leadership?

Generated useless acronyms?

Eradicated leadership measured by distance?

 

Don't Trust, Verify: Apply EDGE EDGE to "The Patrol Method" Presentation of "SM Specific Training."

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

(This message has been edited by kudu)

[Gary_Miller 10]

I like EDGE and wish more adult scouters would follow the principles.

 

You know

 

EXPLAIN what a PLC is.

 

DEMONSTRATE what should happen at a PLC.

 

GUIDE the boys through a PLC.

 

ENABLE the boys by turning the PLC over to them.