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Thomas54

Eagle App has some poor wording and grammatical errors

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I frequently serve as the "district representative" to EBoRs. When I see such problems, I will always make sure that the Eagle Scout knows that issues like that should be corrected prior to the submission to National. (And privately speak to the Committee that these type of issues should have been caught prior to the EBoR.)

 

When I am doing Eagle project reviews, it is one of the topics that I cover. Spelling, grammar, and punctuation ARE important.

(This message has been edited by UCEagle72)

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If the goal of Scouting is assist a young man to become the most productive, well-rounded member of society that he can be then why would we stand back at the this point of his Scouting career and not give him the proper tools to effectively succeed? If we are going to project to the rest of our own organization and the rest of society that this young man represents the crme of the crop why would we as mentors allow him to submit a poorly worded or misspelled application?

 

I am not saying that we should redo the application for him or edit it so that it becomes the work of someone other than the youth. I am simply saying that we should guide him to the right people that can assist him. We want to have Eagle Scout be something of importance on a college application, yet if the Eagle Scout cannot spell the name of the college he is applying to what good is the honor. If we do not take the time to do right by him now when do we have the time or opportunity to do it?

 

JerseyScout has the right idea use his peers that have recently been through the process to guide the way. There is nothing wrong with that. I also like what Shortridge suggested using an open ended approach to encourage the Scout to relook at the application from an outsiders perspective. This is not school but it is life and I think that our program and life go hand in hand.

 

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It's intersting that this thread came up this week. Personally (I have a 17.5 year old son putting his project together), I don't have an issue with adult(s) in the troop looking over their shoulder. We are a 45 year old troop that typically runs a roster of 50 to 60 boys and have had around 160 Eagles in our 45 years. Our SM has held the position for around 10 years. He has seen a lot of Eagle project books and counseled a lot of boys. It is well known in the troop that when you start working on your project, he'd like to look at it. The reason, the boys who go it alone end up having problems with their BOR's. He doesn't do any of the work for them or tell them what to do. He simply reviews it, tells them where they will most likely run into an issue and leaves it to them to correct. In addition to him, we have a Life to Eagle advisor in the troop who helps the boys understand the journey ahead of them.

 

Now, doing what our SM does as opposed to what some parents expect are two different things entirely. We had two boys go to their "final" EBOR this week. Both got turned down at the door. The reason, they had not obtained the required signature from the council certifying or verifying their Eagle required MB's on the Eagle application. The parents were angry with our SM and CC because they signed the Eagle application and didn't TELL the boys to obtain this signature. A little more background here, the boys waited until the night before the EBOR to contact the SM and CC to get signatures on demand. That is something usually not tolerated in our troop. Part of the SM conference and BOR process in our troop is the boy scheduling a time for those events. There is far too many people and far too much going on at any given troop meeting to expect that everything will be dropped to meet your perceived immediate need. Life isn't like that and that is a lesson we try to teach. But I digress. Even if the SM and CC had told them they needed it, it was 8 PM in the evening and the liklihood of obtaining the signature the day of the EBOR (school day) was slim.

 

Where am I going with all of this? It's one thing to guide a boy to write up the best project book possible. It's another to expect the SM to hand hold a 17 year old on obtaining signatures. If you have a document with X number of blanks spaces for signatures and one is blank......should not the boy and/or a parent notice it is blank? Shouldn't they assume that the blank required signature needs to be filled in order to turn in the document and complete the process? I say yes. The boy's families fault the SM and CC.

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"Will his wife still be as impressed with his boyhood accomplishment?

 

First of all: You said it: BOYHOOD ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

 

Not adult accomplishments, English professor or english teach accomplishments.

 

Secondly, That's just tough crap for the wife! What would she think if she found out he ate boogers at age 4?

What would she think if she found out he wet the bed a few times at 6?

What if he threw up in public and somebody saw it for heaven's sake?

 

See, I can look back at when I was 6. 9, 12, 15,and 18 and enjoy stuff because I know that was THEN,. not now. I did all that stuff with the mindset of a 6, 9, 12 , or 18 year old. Not the mind set of a 39 year old.

 

It's called growing up and maturing.

 

Now, I may be wrong, but isn't the point of BOR's and EBOR to look at the boy's personality, and accomplishmenst in the troop, community and family?

 

If you want to start grading papers and chastizing on grammar, then call it SCOUT SCHOOL. Matter of fact, just have him wear his uniform at school and save time!

 

Likewise though, every person on that BOR/ EBOR had better be able to prove they make no such mistakes themselves.

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Lets not misconstrue the point here. No one is saying the app. should be graded or perfect. its not supposed to be. The point is. The scout should be made aware and encouraged to put forth his best effort. Thats all.

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I agree on that: Do your best and put some honest effort in it.

 

Just saying though, I wouldn't grade it, or reject it, nor would I worry about being depressed when he's 50 years old because of a simple error.

 

I mean, we want the scouts to make an effort to be neat and professional, but we just have to remember ...he's not a professional anything..except a professional kid.

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Are we talking about the Eagle Scout Rank Application (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-728_web.pdf)

 

or the Eagle Leadership Service Project Workbook?

(http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-927.pdf)

 

I'll assume the former.

 

There is not much chance for poor English on the Eagle app. It asks for dates, address, etc. so your question doesn't make sense to me.

 

If you meant the ELSPW - as an Eagle Scout advisor/Scoutmaster - my expectation is that the write-up is his best effort. If I saw a few errors, I'd point them out with a "fix this" type comment and not make the correction myself. If I saw quite a few errors (and assumed he was using me due his laziness) I simply tell him to go back and re-do.

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specifically with one "old school" scouter who takes pride in making EBOR's difficult.

 

A real "Old School" Scouter would point out that schoolwork Eagles and their adult "poor wording and grammatical error" enablers are the very essence of what Baden-Powell described as the opposite of Scouting.

 

Then I'd remind him that he should be putting his best foot forward with the Eagle App and project report.

 

I'd remind him that the only writing an Eagle candidate should do is a log of "putting his best foot forward" on a 50 mile Journey (200 on horseback), unsupervised with a couple of Life Scout buddies.

 

That is the proper definition of "Old School" Scouting!

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

King's Scout Senior Explorer Badge

 

Take part in an expedition with not less than 3 and not more than 5 other Scouts. The expedition may be on foot, boat, or on horseback.

 

The expedition must be planned to last at least 4 days, and at least 3 nights must be spent in tents. All necessary equipment and food must be taken and all meals prepared by members of the party.

 

All Scouts in the party will take an equal part in the planning arrangements before and during the expedition, but it is not necessary that all participants should be under test.

 

A detailed log of the expedition must be kept be each member of the party, having previously agreed between themselves a different emphasis for each log - eg weather, geography, history, architecture, archaeology, botany, ornithology.

 

The route and special log subjects must have the prior approval of the examiner.

 

An expedition on foot will cover at least 50 miles in wild country. The 3 nights will be spent at different campsites.

 

An expedition by water will cover at least 50 miles and the log will cover such points as the state of the river, conditions of banks, obstructions to navigation etc.

 

An expedition on Horseback will cover at least 200 miles. In wild country, camping at 3 different camp sites.

 

An expedition, whether on foot or otherwise, must be a test of determination, courage, physical endurance and a high degree of co-operation among those taking part.

 

http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm

 

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Thomas54,

 

Greetings!

 

I had the similar question as acco40, but watching the discussion it was leading to the workbook.

 

I think UCEagle72 stated that he would assist with corrections prior to submission to National.

 

As I understand. The Service Project Workbook does not even go to a Council Committee, it is a Council Advancement Chairs signature and decision. The Rank Application previously went to National. But I have been told since 2000, the Rank Application is entered in ScoutNET 2000 as Eagle BOR date and Council Executive Endorsement and confirmed electronically by National.

 

So, How would I take action to answer your question.

"You as the SM or the Eagle coordinator see several writing errors in a scout's Eagle application. Do you go through and mark it up, adding comments to improve the wording?"

 

The Service Project Workbook goes only as far as the Council Advancement Chair. If I have been given the project to review, I asked that it contain safety, that it contains leadership (and communicating the plan), that it contains a schedule and plans. It can be a paragraph long or it can be a 100 page essay, I don't care. I desire quality (of the project) not quantity. It may go back to the youth for a few revisions of safety and communications. Those recommendations are usually written in pencil on the side borders of the workbook and photocopied for my reminders.

 

After that, I may tell an Eagle candidate what I like, but as long as I can read it aloud, and it still makes sense, I am accepting. If the service project workbook is so poorly written that it does not make a complete thought, then it is time for the red pen and recommended spelling and grammar corrections.

 

Many of the project workbooks I've reviewed have made it thru the first steps of Eagle Trail, contain only a few grammatical errors and few spelling mistakes made by an average teenage boy.

 

I have seen one Service Project Workbook in the past decade that was pretty torn, worn out, crushed, and drawn on (Japanese Anime during school lunch time), with only a paper clip holding the entire mess together. This Eagle candidate and abused workbook still gradually made it thru the process, till the Scout was awarded the Eagle Rank.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

 

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We have a dedicated adult in the Troop who advises our Eagle candidates. He is quite strict with them that they should type their project on a computer, so that Microsoft et al can help with spelling and grammar. As he puts it (paraphrased), "In life you will be judged, and often times the first impression will determine which path of review you are in. If you have poor spelling or grammar on the first page, your project will get more attention to detail instead of attention to the project itself. It is easy to fix, and simple to check - so do it right." Candidates advised by him don't get stopped at the door.

 

As for the concept of writing the plan to be complete. My son's Project Advisor told him that he wanted a project plan written out that could be picked up by another boy on a moment's notice. It was a great exercise in learning to write out a complete plan, and helped to identify missing areas in advance. Again, an excellent exercise in planning out your Leadership path.

 

As a Scoutmaster, I am happy to advise my Life Scouts on their project plans. As a Counselor for Personal Management, I do the same for that requirement. Write it out completely, make it so that it stands on its own without the need for you to explain anything. The ability to communicate clearly without need to additional explanation is a Leadership skill that any good Patrol Leader should have.

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Proofreading...

 

I substitute teach every so often. I was called to a Middle school english class recently. The Sub Plan that the regular teacher left me instructed that the class should orally read their book reports.

Young man starts and stumbles on a word. I comment that if he wrote it, he should know the word... he said he knows his words, but his mom edited the report for him and added some new ones....

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He is quite strict with them that they should type their project on a computer

 

There is no requirement this be typed.

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As a Counselor for Personal Management, I do the same for that requirement. Write it out completely, make it so that it stands on its own without the need for you to explain anything. The ability to communicate clearly without need to additional explanation is a Leadership skill that any good Patrol Leader should have.

 

The "Old School" purpose of a Patrol Leader is to physically "lead" his Patrol on hikes without adult supervision with the clear goal of camping without adult supervision.

 

That is why Baden-Powell did not hold popularity contests for Patrol Leader, in the same way that most Troops do not yet hold elections for BSA Lifeguard.

 

Since we no longer practice anything remotely resembling the real-world "Leadership Skills" required for either Baden-Powell's Patrol System or Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method, maybe we should replace elections with "Patrol Leadership Project Workbooks."

 

That way a Patrol could select its Patrol Leader based on his paper "Leadership Skills" :)

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

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