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Really need advice for my letters of recommendations please


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Crew21_Adv: I apologize if you were offended by anything in my previous post; I intended no disrespect to any person, and if that's the way it came across, then I'm guilty as charged, and will try to avoid it in the future.

 

My frustration is not aimed at any person who declares their religious faith; rather it is with those who would judge others and impose their standards on them. I've never criticize anyone for their beliefs, and I do respect them; for all I know they're right and I'm wrong -- I only believe that no human knows for sure. I do NOT feel that others should believe what I believe. But if a person feels that all others must believe as they do in order to be a moral person, then I say that person is intolerant, disrespectful, and when taken to extremes, it does make them a fanatic. And there's plenty of religious exrremism, both in this country and around the world.

 

Edge didn't start any name calling -- he just detected the scorn and disrespect implied by the first response to his post. He certainly didn't call anyone else names. The only name calling I saw was by Scoutldr. And shame on him for it.

 

I don't mean to be a spokesperson for anyone, but I do know that there are MANY people that share my line of thought. And many of them wish that such a valuable organization as the BSA could have a slightly lighter touch on the religious issue. Although many posts and other sources point out that the religious requirement is tolerant of all faiths, it is still very much Christian-oriented, with many scout sites explaining that to be reverent you must believe in a single supreme being (God). But where does that leave Buddhists, Hindus and others who DON'T believe in a single supreme being? Where would it leave a Native American who believes in the spirits in all things, and no supreme God? And where does it leave a perfectly moral individual who simply questions whether ANYONE knows the truth about God and creation? I can't believe that these scouts should be excluded from all that is good about this organization. And questioning religious beliefs does not make one irreverent or disrespectful.

 

 

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ahofer,

 

Scouting is supportive of Buddhist faithful: The National Council authorizes the religious emblem/adult religious award squre knot for

Cub/Webelo Scouting: Metta

Boy Scouting, Varsity Scouting, and Venturing: Sangha

Adults: Bodhi

 

http://bcascout.webs.com/index.html

 

Scouting is supportive of Hindi faithful: The National Council authorizes the religious emblem/adult religious award squre knot for:

Cub/Webelo Scouting: Dharma

Boy Scouting, Varsity Scouting, and Venturing: Dharma or Karma to 14, Karma 14-21

Adults: Saathi/Bhakta

 

http://www.naha.us/

 

When a Hindu or a Buddhist signs an adult leader app, accepting the DRP, BSA accepts it within the contect of their faith.

 

I've made no secret of my Christian faith. In the Scouting context, though, I don't care what your faith is, as long as you are faithful to it. I won't make you come to my worship setting (and that includes "generic" Scouts' own services for mass audiences such as Camporee.

 

If you have an issue of how your unit handles matters of faith, that's an adult discussion between parents, the SM and the COR. Christianity does not get to impose itself on other faiths in the Scouting context; it asks that other faiths honor that as well.

 

YIS.

 

Now, what was your objection, again?

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ahofer,

 

Greetings!

 

I enjoyed the tone of your second post. You presented fair opinions and statements without exerting a hostile controversy.

 

I hope we are on even ground now. We may enjoy different opinions, but we are cautious in presenting them as fact. (Any fellow poster that states percentage or similar will be questioned on it in this forum or other forums)

 

Also, it is easy to get emotional about a forum topic, and type a slur or insult like troll or fanatic. We all have probably done it either face to face, in an email or on a webpage forum. Then after learning how easy it is to offend a fellow forum member or we learn to guard our words, and type a slur or insult when we really mean to offend or confront.

 

Finally, Regarding BSA and all religions: I would expect there are many more through the US, but if you ever have the opportunity to Scout in Hawaii, quite a few chartering organizations or Buddhist Temples/Churches, and practice the Buddhist faith (while I practice my own faith) during Summer camp or weekend camporees. Unfortunately, I've never had the opportunity to meet any Boy Scouts of America from the Hindi faith, only members of the Scout Association that practiced Hindi.

 

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

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ahofer:

 

Edge is the one who said "you must think I am a troll". I merely agreed that I do think that. Those are my beliefs. Why are you ridiculing them?

 

I stand in judgement of no man or boy. I am merely stating facts. Edge stated, "I am an atheist". Therefore, he is NOT eligible to be a Boy Scout, much less an Eagle Scout. And if he goes before the Eagle Board and lies about his core beliefs just to get a tin badge, then he is a dishonorable human being as well. Again, just stating fact. Those are NOT my rules and I'm not saying I agree with them. But they are, nonetheless, rules in fact. If you have a beef with the rules of the BSA, which have been upheld by the Supreme Court of the US, then write a letter to Irving and tell them what you think. It does no good to complain to us...we don't make the rules. We're just customers of the organization, like you and our opinions are worth the same as yours...zero. The BSA offers a product and they think they have enough satisfied customers that they don't need to change. Get it?

 

Or start your own private youth organization, then YOU can make up the rules, eh?

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Crew21_Adv (and others): Thanks for YOUR last post, I believe we've found common ground. As you pointed out, it's easy to become emotional about these issues, and I did so in my first post. My writings were never aimed at those of faith who respect those of other beliefs -- or those who question their beliefs.

 

My frustration was only with those who told EdgeofThorns that he didn't belong in the scouts. In his first post, he first described himself as agnostic (questioning), and only later described himself as "atheist" (with quotations). Perhaps he's confused as to the distinction. Either way, though I feel he's undoubtedly a good, moral, respectful person, with every right to pursue the path to Eagle, and that it's a sad thing for others to tell him he doesn't belong in the Scouts.

 

 

 

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scoutldr:

 

I don't mean to ridicule anyone, and you're entitled to whatever beliefs and opinions you have, and I do respect that. If however, you think a scout is a troll because he doesn't believe what you believe, then I do think it's sad, especially if you're a scout leader. It doesn't matter whether he used the word first or not.

 

As to whether he's an atheist or not, as I said in a previous post, at 17, and without a formal religious background, he may be confused as to the distinction between an agnostic and an atheist, and there's a big one.

 

I meant only to provide him with support for the idea that if he merely questions what God might really be, perhaps believing that NO human can really know, then he's not an atheist, and it doesn't mean he's nonspiritual, immoral or irreverent. Thus, I think it's entirely consistent for an agnostic to profess belief that there is SOME kind of higher power or structure to the universe, beyond random chance, that caused the creation we see around us, in all it's complexity and beauty. If a scout can believe in this mystery, without believing that humans can ever understand and explain it, then that should be enough to qualify a scout as reverent. And I think there's no question that such a scout should be welcomed openly and encouraged to follow the path to Eagle.

 

Agnostics don't need to create their own youth organization, there's nothing remotely like the BSA in existence, and thousands of us have been proud and loyal members for many decades. Those with narrow, rigid beliefs don't own the organization, we all do. If agnostics have to declare that they believe in a mysterious pattern behind the universe and choose to call it "God" in order to satisfy those who sit in judgement of them, I see no moral conflict there.

 

 

 

 

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I never said he didn't "belong". I stated that, as an atheist/agnostic he doesn't meet the membership criteria. He needs to figure out what he believes before he goes before the Board. They will surely ask him about how he fulfills his "duty to God" (a pretty standard question at all EBOR), and he should answer honestly.

 

Ya wanna know my opinion? I think that ALL youth should be offered Scouting. I have gay and atheist friends and I don't think they are all "bad people", or necessarily immoral. All gay men are not pedophiles or "bad role models". Some of my sons' best teachers were gay/lesbian. I'm sure many of them are atheist, too, but it's none of my business. I do think smokers are bad role models, but the BSA lets them in...go figure. Bottom line is, I don't run the organization nor do they ask me what I think.

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Our posts are crossing in the ether...sorry about that.

 

ahofer, I don't think we are that far apart. I'm just saying that if he goes before the EBOR and blurts out "I am an atheist", he's gonna have a problem. That issue needs to be resolved BEFORE he gets to that point, either with his parents, SM or other respected adult. I sit on EBOR as the District rep, and I know whereof I speak. Go over the "Declaration of Religious Principles" with him and the explanation in the Handbook of "A Scout is Reverent". But, ultimately, he needs to come down off the fence before he goes into the EBOR. Everyone should stand by their beliefs, or lack thereof. But there are consequences to that. Another valuable life lesson, eh?

 

People of faith all have doubts from time to time. I do, too. We wouldn't be normal, imperfect humans if we didn't. But I can read the DRP and agree to it, therefore, I am a member.

 

And to correct your other mis-conception, we all don't "own" the BSA. The BSA is a corporation that markets and licenses a product (the program and materials) to Chartering Organizations. (And the biggest and most powerful COs are churches). We (Scouts and Scouters and parents) are customers of that product. Like going to McDonalds...if we don't like the Big Mac, we can choose not to buy it...we can offer suggestions for improvement, we can even picket and protest against it. But we can't "demand" they change it. We don't have that power. The only power you have is to NOT stroke that check every year. That's the reality.

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scoutldr: GREAT reply. It's so encouraging to see a forum exchange that, for a change, brings people closer to an understanding instead of escalating out of control. When we remove the heat of emotion from the discussion, we ARE far closer than it first appeared. Thanks very much for listening with an open mind and striving for better communication.

 

I see your points and agree with them. My own concern was also to get this scout (and other agnostic scouts) to think before they blurt out "I'm an atheist" before an Eagle board of review. I believe many who think of themselves as atheists may really be agnostic, and as I said in prior posts, all an agnostic has to do is really THINK about the creation around them to find a spiritual core. And that can be called God by anyone.

 

As to who "owns" the BSA, you're right again, and I'm wrong -- at least by the legal definition. But, while the BSA may be a corporation, I believe that SCOUTING is the scouts, the leaders and the families involved. The BSA provides a service, but the Scouts themselves make scouting what it is, and what it can be again, if we can get it to spread further and attract more people who've been turned off in the past. No other youth activity comes close to providing what scouting does, in such a wide spectrum of valuable, honorable experiences, and like you, I do wish it was explictly open to everyone. In the meantime, I just wanted to encourage as many as possible to realize that they CAN be included without compromising their beliefs or the rules of the organization, if they just think about it clearly.

 

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply.

 

 

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ahofer,

 

 

Also...

 

I think many adult Scouters and a few youth Scouts join this forum to discuss Scouting. To discuss how to deliver a program. And sometimes, how to work thru a dilemma.

 

One of your final statements, I would expect most all Scouters do fundamentally concur with, and desire the best for any youth.

ahofer said "My own concern was also to get this scout (and other agnostic scouts) to think before they blurt out "I'm an atheist" before an Eagle board of review. I believe many who think of themselves as atheists may really be agnostic, and as I said in prior posts, all an agnostic has to do is really THINK about the creation around them to find a spiritual core. And that can be called God by anyone."

 

Now, regarding the original post made by Edge. There are a few people (non Scouters) that will join this and any other webpage forums just to stimulate controversy for their own entertainment. Some of them are legitimate, but some of them pose as; young girls stating they were raped by their father on anti-abortion pro-life forums. Posing as Young adult men unsure of their own sexuality after leaving a catholic church retreat. Posing as Native Americans asking why the government wants to drill on "their land". Posing on webpages as illegal immigrants asking why their grandma was shot at by the "minute man militia". Many of these posers create dialogue that digresses into angry emotional debates over extremely controversial topics. The poser never really seems to care about the topic, they only want to be entertained.

 

One of my first responses in this thread was about a forum member on Scouter.com about 3 years ago; this member stated he(she) would ask one simple question and only wanted one simple answer. What seemed like 20 pages later, and what seemed like a thousand answers, and the new forum member declined to accept any answer. That was that forum members only discussion, and it was only to create havoc between forum members and entertain him (or her).

 

In my earlier post, I stated;

"Reminds me of the forum member that asked a question, and said "just give me one reason". This specific forum member received a few hundred answers and responses, but after every reason (a few hundred reasons) the forum member would reply "I don't believe it" or "I don't buy into that".

 

 

Some of Edge's comments in his original post, could be legit, but some of Edge's comments in the very first post made myself (and maybe a few others) skeptical of Edges legitimacy and honesty.

 

Maybe EdgeofThorns is truly a 17 y/o Life Scout wondering if he is agonistic or if there really is a God and does he really have any faith. (If this is actually true, I wish him luck).

 

Or maybe Edge is a 30'something, anti-social, video game playing, hater and forum poser that laughs at any serious dialogue digressing into a heated debate, all for Edge's entertainment value.

 

From the original post, I have a hard time believe Edge is really a 17 y/o honestly looking for advice on a webpage.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

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Crew21_Adv: I understand the problem of posers creating controversy on web forumns; with Edge, I'm quite sure this is NOT the case, as I received a thoughtful, personal message from him this morning thanking me for my support, and I think there haven't been any posts on this thread by him since the first two. Thanks again for your thoughts.

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I have looked many places but as yet I have yet to find any scouting group that says monotheism is the only way to be. I beleive amongst the regulars of this forum there are many who are followers of belief systems other than Christian, Jewish or Islam and I take this forum to be as random a group of scouters that can possibly be.

 

Now, as I haven't been everywhere, I can't and won't speak on a national level, but I have yet to be anywhere where my beliefs were important to anyone but myself. I have to say if I was in such a situation, I wouldnt remain there long,whether or not I met the "expectations" of the group.

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Thanks, ahofer. I am usually a pretty reasonable, if conservative, kinda guy. Hang around the campfire awhile and help us solve all the world's ills! And if Edge is still reading, OK, you're not a troll and my apologies for doubting you. Jump back in the water and let us know how your quest is coming.

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I've still been checking the thread occasionally but only really replying to pms and stuff because I really didn't want to start an argument here. I just really needed some advice and thought I could get it on an anonymous forum. To be honest I haven't made a ton of progress on my eagle scout rank. I've completely tied up my leadership project, sending thank you letters to all the people that helped (which was a lot, since i did a supply drive for the local animal shelter and had a lot of companies donate). I still need my letters but I've got someone in mind for pretty much each category I need, so I'll ask them within the next week or so. But I've been busy lately helping my friend get his project done before his deadline. He got done 2 days before his 18th birthday and am happy he made it. To clear up the agnostic vs. atheist thing, I put Atheist in quotations because people that question faith on a regular basis are often just clumped into this group. A lot of messages really helped me learn a lot more about faith and one message really stood out to me (can't recall the name, but thank you) about how "god" can be viewed as the natural phenomenons and just cycles in the world. I found this to be a much more reasonable view for me at least and agree and it actually kind of made sense to me. I really don't know how to prove I'm a 17 year old but I've really gotten the advice I've needed out of the forums and would like to thank everyone of you even the doubters.

 

 

edit- Forgot to mention i got all my merit badges and whatnot done so it really only comes down to the paperwork now and the board of reviews.(This message has been edited by Edgeofthorns)

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