Denied rank advance. to Star...any advice

[Crew21_Adv 25]

Seagull99,

 

Aloha!

 

 

Like I said. Sorry that your cable box was not working, I guess there was no homework from missing school or books to read for his English class. Maybe some merit badge pamphlets to read thru.

 

But, sitting on the moped would have been better for the customers inside the drug store and video rental store.

 

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Backwoods 10]

Well... this is some post. As a psychologist I like to look at the "thing behind the thing", it really doesnt take much training, but it does take some interest and honesty. It seems like you have two forces at work here; the scoutmaster's needs and your son's/your needs. The scoutmaster seems to value his control of the process of the Troop and the boy's behavior. You seem to value much the same for your son. Your boy, I am assuming would like to please both of you while having a good time. Some things you said caused me to prick up my ears. "Last night the troop had a planning meeting for a camp out scheduled for this weekend. We weren't there because my son is not attending this camp out..." This thread started with you discussing a meeting that your son missed with the flu. I wonder if your expectations and your son's expectations match the leaders' expectations? Don't get me wrong, from what you report the SM is not responding appropriately, but he is acting out because your son missed a meeting. How many does he miss? what is the expectation? In our Troop the meeting is the meeting, regardless of who is attending the weekend outing, all are expected, indeed all should want to be there.

 

In the end none of the advice is likely to change the SM. You have three choices, wait patiently and follow his lead, move to a different unit, or accumulate power and influence and try to oust him as Scoutmaster. Personaly I think the last one is the worst option, and still requires the first option, AND may not work anyway.

 

Your son has some time, if this turns into a long term freeze-out, look for another unit. In the meantime he has merit badges to work on. Good luck.

[SeaGull99 10]

Backwoods: My son rarely misses a weekly meeting. The planning meeting for the backpacking trip was not a required meeting. In fact, you were only supposed to attend if you were going on the trip. My son wasn't going. There are limits on the number of boys that can attend each trip, so sometimes my son can't go due to those requirements. The troop has almost 60 boys, so camp outs are limited to the first 20-25 boys that sign up. Since the troop only has one camp out per month, my son (and most boys) don't go on every one, but certainly attending every other camp out is the norm for my son.

 

I forgot to mention that my son has earned all of the Eagle required merit badges (he only has partials in Personal Mgmnt and Personal Fitness, but they are partials only because they require a specified time period to pass) already plus about 20 other non required badges too.(This message has been edited by SeaGull99)

[AwHeck 10]

Geez limits on how many can go on campouts? We occasionally see this in our troop such as our recently offered dog sledding activity but MOST campouts are open to all interested scouts. Is it a problem of not enough tents or cooking equipment? If so I'd suggest the troop invest in more equipment.

[Beavah 205]

The troop has almost 60 boys, so camp outs are limited to the first 20-25 boys that sign up.

 

 

Yah, what's up with that, eh? Every now and then yeh hear somethin' new. Can't imagine how such a system works with patrol method.

 

I wonder if this is because of gear (buy more!), or insufficient adult participation/drivers (recruit more!), or capacity of local campgrounds (choose other campgrounds or split into two troops). Can't ever imagine wantin' to tell a current member of the troop he can't come on a campout because there's not enough space. Yah, sure, a few special events might need restrictions. But all the time?

 

I forgot to mention that my son has earned all of the Eagle required merit badges (he only has partials in Personal Mgmnt and Personal Fitness, but they are partials only because they require a specified time period to pass) already plus about 20 other non required badges too.

 

Sounds like leavin' this troop was a reasonable option for yeh, SeaGull. Based on what yeh write here, I reckon yeh should be lookin' for a fairly heavily (adult) organized unit that places a lot of emphasis on advancement, eh? Seems to be where your heart is, and where you'll find the best fit for your needs.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob 13]

Wow. My son's troop hovers between 40-60 boys depending on how many new scouts we get and how many are aging out at a given time. As far as I'm aware, we've NEVER needed to limit attendance at camp outs like you describe.

 

I wish your son the best in his new troop.

[fleetfootedfox 10]

We have a cabin camp out next weekend. The webelos crossed over sooner than originally expected and put our numbers over what we were allowed in the cabin. So, it's the first time I can remember us having to limit a camp-out. We are not a huge troop though. Boys need opportunities for camping, and I would hate to have to limit it every month. That just doesn't make sense to me.

[SeaGull99 10]

When my son crossed over and became a Boy Scout, we always assumed that having limits on the number of participants for camp outs and such were normal and that every other troop was the same way. You guys changed that perception for me. It must be nice for all the boys that want to go on troop outings to be able to go. It took my son over two years to earn the camping merit badge because of the limitations on the number of camping participants and not being signed up in time to make the cut-off. I have never heard any mention of tents or equipment being a problem, but I have heard some discussion about needing more adults to be drivers and the like.

 

Incidentally, we started with the new troop tonight....much better! We are staying positive. My boy is already going on a camp out this weekend with his new troop. Looks like the possibility of the island rains are going to wet them up though. :0) It will be a good experience anyway.

[NeilLup 13]

Hello SeaGull,

 

I come late to this thread but do have a couple of thoughts particularly in your new Troop.

 

1) Agree with it or not, there is no "performance" requirement for the Position of Responsibility. If the boy is in the job for the required period of time, he meets the requirement. The SM is not permitted to put in a "training" requirement, particularly retroactively.

 

2) You mentioned that your son has been a First Class Scout since March '08 and PL since Sept '08. From March '08 to Sept '08, did he hold some Position of Responsibility in the Troop (scribe, quartermaster, Den Chief, historian, etc?) If so, he has already met the position of responsibility requirement prior to being PL. This should be noted on his transfer papers.

 

3) Something else you said that really tweaked my "spidey sense." You mentioned that your son has completed essentially all of the Eagle Required merit badges and only needs time for Personal Management and Personal Fitness. If I were to be a Unit Commissioner visiting that unit and saw a First Class Scout with all of the Eagle Required merit badges, I would emit a loud Hmmmmmm. There is something very, very strange going on. He should have been up for Star Scout a long time ago. There are, I believe, 12 Eagle Required Merit Badges and only 6 Merit Badges are needed for Star Scout. So he already has 10 not counting any optional merit badges. I can see a few possibilities:

 

1) This unit makes advancement really, really difficult. Possibly by having very few positions of responsibility available

2) Your son is not that interested in advancement

3) (I duck as I write this one) The unit is a merit badge mill and its members get lots and lots of merit badges very early, very quickly and very easily. If this is so, sadly, you son has been badly cheated. He has been led to believe that he has had a proper Scouting experience and he has not.

 

Or some combination.

 

At any rate, other posters have written appropriately about what to do in your old unit, but you are now gone. I can only suggest that you get a proper transfer form properly listing all of his ranks, merit badges, camps and other awards and have it signed by the old unit and then approved at the local council. That is a key proof of advancement and if questions are ever asked, that approved transfer form is a golden document in substantiating what happened in his old unit. Keep a copy of it as it may need to go in with his Eagle application when that would be submitted.

 

We all hope you have a wonderful time in your new unit.

[John-in-KC 311]

One other option to what Neil said: Ask the gaining unit to get a ScoutNet download on your son. Be sure that what the old unit said is what they actually sent to the Registrar.

 

 

[SeaGull99 10]

My son earned most of those badges at some Scout camps he attended on the Mainland. He has attended two one-week long summer camps both summers of his Scouting career thus far.

 

Neil: My son held the position of Den Chief during those months you questioned. He has been Patrol Leader, Assistant Patrol, and Den Chief. However, we had to get my son the Den Chief training out of our own pocket and on another island since it was not going to be offered on our island for about nine months. Although my son had the training, was accepted by the SM to do that position, and was recognized as a Den Chief at the next Court of Honor, after he was trained he never got to complete any work with a Pack or Den because the Cubs don't meet in the summer. So, my son was never actually able to "perform the duties of that position" so that he could earn credit toward advancement. So, when my boy asked the SM to be appointed to some other position, he was told that none were available other than Troop Guide, and that a Scout had to be 14 to be a Troop Guide.

[NeilLup 13]

Hello Seagull,

 

If you read some of the other posts on these boards, you will see more than a few about summer camps which make merit badges, particularly Eagle required merit badges, readily available. The term merit badge mill applies to those summer camps too. It certainly is possible that this is something that troubled your old Scoutmaster.

 

As far as Den Chief goes, the requirement is to "serve actively 4 months in one or more positions of responaibility." There is no training requirement and clarifications from National have made it clear that there is no performance requirement. There is no requirement to "perform the duties of the position." It is neither his fault nor his responsibility that the dens were not meeting during the summer; he was ready to serve. If he has been appointed to the position of Den Chief, he is accruing Position of Responibility time until and unless he is removed from the position by the Scoutmaster or other Troop official. If there is question about his activity, I would think that going to another Hawaiian island to take training certainly demonstrates activity. It would seem that he has more than enough time in a position of responsibility.

 

At any rate, I would suggest that you be sure that his Den Chief time is on the transfer papers.

[SeaGull99 10]

Good information, Neil.

 

We always assumed that they were right to tell him he was ineligible to advance because he never has gotten to work with a Den or Pack. However, my son still has Den Chief beside his name in the records to this day.

[NeilLup 13]

As I understand matters, being appointed to the position and not being removed from the position is all that is needed.

[Dbie 10]

I'm bucking the trend here by saying that I think the SM has a point: if your son was well enough to go to the drug store and pick out movies to rent, he was well enough to attend the training. When my kids are sick, they don't go shopping.

 

That being said, I also find it sad that someone turned him in for being out and about, and that the SM won't discuss the issue with you or your son. That seems to point out a larger issue within the Troop to me.